What is the purpose of the CPR?
The aim of this site is to help everyone who is involved in the child protection system, in whatever capacity by:
- providing up to date information about relevant law and practice, and;
- contributing to the wider debate about the child protection system.
The ethos of this site is summed up by the words of Lord Laming
‘Please keep me safe’. This simple but profoundly important hope is the very minimum upon which every child and young person should be able to depend… The years of childhood pass all too quickly and become the foundation upon which the rest of life depends… In general, families are best placed to care for children and promote their welfare. Fortunately the vast majority of parents seek the best for their children and, entirely rightly, the state supports them in this important task. However, parenthood incorporates not only rights but also responsibilities: it is a lifetime commitment. Particular mention should be made of the part to be played by fathers, not least as good role models.
Who/What is the CPR?
This site started in February 2014 after a group of people got together who had met on line. We had experience of the system from a wide variety of perspectives – lawyers, parents, social workers – and were all very worried about the quality of the ‘advice’ offered by some to potentially very vulnerable people.
The site is run by me – family lawyer Sarah Phillimore. Many others have contributed – some wish to remain anonymous for pretty obvious reasons, but when individuals wish to identify themselves, they will make this clear.
EMAIL: firstname.lastname@example.org TWITTER: @C_P_Resource
I hope this will be an ever growing resource – so if you have something you think would be useful to share with others please get in touch and let me know. Please feel free to join in, by either commenting on our articles or submitting your own article for publication.
If you are not happy with something published here then let me know. If you are thinking about an action in defamation against me, please read this first.
Constructive comments are welcomed from anyone with an interest or experience in the child protection field. But if you are unable or unwilling to use basic courtesy you will not be allowed to post here. I understand discussing child protection issues can provoke very strong emotions and genuine grievances, but rude and abusive posts get us nowhere and put other people off joining in. Your comment may be moved to the Response to Commentators section, where it can be answered without derailing or detracting from any constructive debate.
Please don’t post anything that might identify a child who is involved in care proceedings, as this is against the law.
This is the internet and this is a site run by me in my spare time. I can’t carry out extensive background checks on everyone who contributes. With regard to blog posts, If I think something looks credible and helpful, I will publish it. If I publish it, please assume it is because I think it is true and worth saying. If I get something wrong, please tell me.
However, if I provide links to other websites, don’t assume that means I approve the contents of that site and don’t hold me responsible for the content.
As with ANY internet site – be cautious. You often can’t be sure who anyone is. Don’t use this or any other internet resource to replace getting help and advice from the trusted people in real life. Nothing posted here should be taken as specific legal advice for your own particular circumstances; nobody should ever take any actions, or fail to take any actions, based solely on what they read on the internet.
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I think if anyone is going to hurl wild accusations around then they need real facts to back it up on either side.
Hopefully one thing we can all agree on is that the more time we spend on making or dealing with ‘wild accusations’ the less time we have to do anything remotely productive or helpful.
Where can I comment for advice on child protection matters???
This is a site about providing general advice and information; it isn’t somewhere that can offer you specific advice about your own circumstances as that would require proper access to your case papers and all the relevant information.
If you need legal help/advice, there might be someone here who could help
Uk I sent that not in usa…??! I’m in los anges california…actually case is outta orange county california….I desperately need help asap….
sorry, this site deals with the law in England and Wales so I am not going to be any help if you live in California – its a whole different system which i don’t know about.
The sooner we realise it’s not about who is in the right or wrong or the sexes and that our children are now commodities – the less children will be taken. Avoid court proceedings at all costs if you value your family and children – mediation first and foremost x
In 8 weeks time my children return to my care. Although they mostly stay with me at present, the date has been set, With the help of a great solicitor. Only advice I would give is don’t waste your time and energy on proving “social workers lie” just stick to the facts and never give up. X
That is fantastic news. I do remember you and your case. I am glad you didn’t give up, how wonderful for you and your family!
Thank you Sarah. Yes we are all relieved and happy. I’m going to continue to do some work with thinking allowed. Andrew Lister i think his name is, he’s got a great way of leading the courses he does. I completed “how & why” I enjoyed going & met some great people.
Glad you remember us, the boys are doing well.
You will know the solicitor who has helped us these past two years. She’s at the same office on corn street.
Anyway thank you for your kind words to me at such a low point in my life. You said forgive myself & never give up. I said those words to myself over the years when things were tough, it helped.
I am so glad to hear that. I am glad I was able to say something that helped and I am grateful that you are able to tell me. One of the big problems with the system is that lawyers and judges rarely get feedback on what happens after the court case ends – did things turn out well or badly? We often don’t know, particularly about the happy endings as they tend not to come back to court!
I’m glad I can let you know too.
The time after court for my children and my family was very bad. No words will describe.
I wouldn’t know where to begin.
Nothing the judge requested happened at least not promptly anyway. There is fear as a parent if you complain the chances that social services will work with you is dwindled.
So yes it is a shame that judges & lawyers are making such important decisions not realising how bad it is.
Saying that I am greatful for the very few good social workers I have met. That is when my children even had one & they changed every few months. It’s a shame.
The lack of continuity of social workers is a real and serious problem. Makes it very hard for anyone to build a relationship with anyone else.
It’s not the trying to prove them wrong. It’s the allegations they accuse you of. I gave them anything they asked of me. But when your child tells you specific things regarding school it went against me as the school accused myself of totally outrageous allegations. For exampoe:- in the presence of a police officer I let my 8 year old child drive us about 10 miles to home as i was under the influence of alcohol. I tried to protect my children but ss said I was making my children tell lies about 2 teachers and believed the school over us
Record everything from the start, take witnesses and send it to the court, lots of cases are here. Find out your rights which cases can be removed children. Once social worker came, came for child, no discussion, you will have just assesments. What you will say will be used against you. Family lawyers cost lost of money, and may no help. It isn’t like in the past when a child was removed when nobody didn’t care. But be careful, who isnt married or divorced can be used against you. Today it’s from everyone who is reported, statistic of cases needs to be public. Write petition all of you, start to fight, don’t let system to give up with forcing.
If you send stuff to the court directly that they haven’t requested, you risk it going in the bin. There are clear rules and structures about how the process plays out and you have to comply with them or you will run the risk that the arguments you want to make just don’t get heard.
Plz let know who your solicitor is im in newcastle the LA lied about everything .
It was dafamatoin of my character annd lied anout flight risk
You can get all the aivce on this site and the social services should also know there is too many. Things laws. Involving all this
If I tell the social worker I am a victim of violence or abuse, and after that I want to pach up with my husband will he take my baby away ?.
Dear ma’am, I trust you’re well. I wanted to post publicly so you can check my IP address and help ensure my own digital security given the use and retention of electrical items by unsavoury officers. I also need to speak with you confidentially regarding a truly sensitive matter involving officials failing in their duties to child welfare indefensibly so. I’m facing the malicious response to seeking formal complaints and yet they are still failing to provide my child’s medical records despite failing to protect my child. Can we please speak and hopefully using a secure means of communication?
Unfortunately, on my side I have Matt…. But believe me, only a few abuse/rape survivors will ever speak out in public. Fear, fear, fear… It is Jimmy Savile 2.0 all over again, always.
I can understand perfectly where anyone who was abused as a child is coming from, I know how it is hard to change name, address, life.. Just to escape the past.
A friend of mine was sexually abused by her stepfather. She had depression and PTSD for years and one day she decided she had to face the past. She reported her rapist to the police. Well her mum didn’t want to speak or see her anymore and she put every single relative against her.
It is not easy to speak out. And associations like Fassit are on the victimblaming attitude side (because they think that if there is no conviction the fact didn’t ever happen) and they assert just the opposite of anything said by Rape Crisis, Women’s Aid and all the associations dealing with abuse and rape. I mean, if you want to get an idea about it, just browse the internet and see what Joseph or Hemming stated, even in public interviews.
The problem is that this Fassit people have no idea of what they are doing and, above all, how much harm are causing to the ones they think they are protecting. Shameful and disgusting to anyone who has suffered abuse in their lives.
My partner and my son and daughter was taken from me I was domestics violence and drug use it got bad that I use to use the kids money I even done bad things I have ptsd as I was asbus by SOCAIL worker I was told by my drug and domestic case worker gave me good news even the social worker that am under as I am 100% better and 100% well again as the. Social services see the prove from my doctors and all my programs that I can be a family again but it’s proving I can do it for the kids D my partner but my partner dosnt know anything of the truth about rebuilding the relationship as they dot want to tell her as they want her singel for life and it’s not fair
I knew I done wrong but I will fix this and make this right
Aaron, You deserve help and praise for beating your drug habit and changing your life,you’ve proved the CS wrong
You now need independent advice on your individual case ,contact THE FAMILY RIGHTS GROUP online.They will advise you,can put you in touch with other help and you can ring their free helpline.
If you have recognised your problems, taken steps to deal with them AND can keep up the changes you have made, that is huge. Not many people get beyond even the first step. But when you have had such troubles in your life, its not surprising that some people will remain very distrustful and expect you to fail again. All you can do is keep trying to prove them wrong. Well done for getting this far and I hope you don’t lose hope.
The social worker are hard work and I am doing everything I can to be better we well again I been told by the social ican rubuid the relationship between myself and my kids and my partner it’s going to take some time but all got to meow optic wing hem wrong and showing am there for the kids and my partner am doing everything I can to be a happy family again
Hi Sarah I was going to say I know it’s hard to rebuild a relationship when got social services but things can be done just need to keep doing the right things and providing prove and doing everything that you can do just don’t stop and keep going
The only way out is through. You just have to keep going. Get all the help and support you can for when things get hard, which I am sure they will at times.
Your case seem as like mine I got a son and daughter my partner got taken from me because of drugs and. Domestic violence I did bad things like threw my fone at my partner head also done horrible things like throw a cold water keltel that never hit her I got told my partner saying I have hurt my son and and family I am on helping programs like talking therapy counselling drug groups of ice domestic violence seeming the doctor a lot
Zoe my partner and bella my daughter Nd my son Lachlan I am doing everything can to rebuild a relationship as it all takes time and steps I just hope she is going to be a family again with myself and the kids
I think if you want to make a complaint about the conduct of a Judge, as opposed to appealing against the legality of their decision, you need to contact the Judicial Conduct Investigation Office at http://www.judicialcomplaints.gov.uk – they might be able to tell you what options you have if a Judge is now retired.
I’ve been fighting for my autistic son for 4 years in front of the same judge I find out that this judge had an ex housekeeper and she’s been a foster parent for 30 years plus then I find out that my son’s dad has a daughter who’s been in foster care since she was 3 and now she’s 13. The father still has parental rights my son dad…and so happens that the foster care mother is the judges ex housekeeper who’s been overseeing all my cases they still refuse to give me my son back so I take it to Circuit court and I file charges against the Father for assaulting my son again and so is CPS worker comes after me and places a protection order against me out of a form of retaliation .then I turn around and I find out that she’s got a criminal record along with her husband all I can say is this Judge need to be stripped of his job! He has destroyed my sons life along with myself have suffered emotional anguish… what can I do me and my 4 year old daughter that I have custody of by the same judge we have not seen my son since August2015.. and here it is Christmas in the system here is so corrupt and cruel Charlottesville ,city Albemarle county, virginia. JJ&D Judge for city and county,he’s also a judge in his hometown of Madison County,Along with other surrounding counties..( Edward D. Berry) He has been feeding foster parents with children for years and has destroyed too many families ,ripping them apart.
Sorry, I don’t know anything much about the US system – this website is looking at the law in England and Wales. I hope you can find someone in your country who can help.
if allegations,concerns etc can destroy people and stopping them doing a job they love and good at there should be evidence . i was suspended on lies taking2 years to get to panel .we didnt know what evidence was used if any .this destroyed us .it also caused trauma to two babies with abruupt moves .we had not seen so cial worker for 4 months prior to moves done by two s workers who i didnt know . i would never advise anyone to foster. we had been carers for 13 years never had anything like this said before.
People can be very naive when it comes to the social work they do sometimes get it wrong I am currently being assesed for a child protection conference I know because of my past it will be granted but I’m so frustrated with it all, he asked my 8 year old daughter if she believed in god and if she knew the difference between a Catholic and protestant ( she doesn’t ) what have those questions got to do if he’s assessing wether my kids are in danger I live myself with 3 girls he always comes on his own and always unannouced and I feel very uncomfortable when he’s in when i spoke to my lawyer he told me there is absolutely no reason for them to be in our lives they are never off school the house is spotless my kids are always clean happy and healthy, every time he tells me he read something in the notes that i know for a fact has never happened please can anyone give me any advice as its really affecting my kids and myself
Are they taking you to court? If so, you need to talk further to your lawyer. You need to understand exactly what is being said about your parenting/interaction with children and why they are worried. If they have based conclusions on false information, make sure the correct information is put before them.
If they aren’t taking you to court, they can only intervene in your family life if you consent. If you say they have no reason to intervene – withdraw your consent.
But do bear in mind that if they DONT agree with you that everything is fine, this could trigger court action.
Please can u advise me I’m a single mum i have 4 children aged 17(04/08/99)
11(10/03/06), 4(26/07/12) and 3(16/03/0/14)children services want to see me in court 25/04/17 to try to place an interim order to remove my children i was involved years ago due to domestic violence i spent 5 and half years doing everything to prove myself able to have the kids and now they say all the reports my neighbours which are all false and my home isn’t tidy enough which it is but i have young children and do as much as i can with back and hip pain my 11 year old has ADHD and autism and the youngest ones are now getting very clingy as if they sense something i am willing to do everything i can to keep my kids but if they are taken i don’t know if u could go on they are my life and none of the children’s father’s have ever supported them i have been the one to fight to get an ehcp for my daughter’s behavioural issues please contact me i really need yr help and advice
I am really sorry to hear that and I am sorry but I can’t help you over the internet.
You need to get urgent legal advice and be able to share all relevant documents with your lawyer.
If the LA are saying they want to take your children, they will have to make an application to the court and get an order. If that happens you will be entitled to free legal help.
Please phone the Family Rights Group – there may be some information here which will also be helpful
Please also contact the Disability organisations
Contact a Family
Cerebra (downloadable Problem Solving Toolkit is excellent)
Also the school may have a SENCO or Ed Psych that will have some ideas
You will need to deal with two issues – One a child Protection and the other a Disability one as CS my not make the connection.
Other parents may also be able to help.
You are doing the right thing looking for help, keep going.
is this cover all things?
Im currently going through a situation with child services. My ex partner of 6 years took my 13 year old son to a football match, they then went to pizza hut, my ex was found to be ‘out of it’ they thought he was drunk but we now think he had taken some sort of substance and he was seen to be falling asleep in the restaurant. The staff called the police and he was arrested on suspicion of child neglect, my son was taken to the police station under police protection, I was then informed and they brought my son home, they advised that there was no issue with myself but a social worker would be in touch and his dad was to have no contact. This is fine by me as as you can understand I was furious. However when the police have done the relevant checks on myself and ,my current partner I had to attend a meeting with a police office and a sw who had to give me a full disclosure on my partner. He has had a history with multiple partners of allegations of harassment and abuse and domestic violence, there is one conviction for harassment and restraining order in place. This came as a massive shock to me as my partner has never shown me any signs of this and is amazing with my children and my family, we have been together 18 months and have just recently moved in together. I know u cannot advise my specific case, but could u advise on what would normally happen in this situation, would my partner have to move out? I was told by CS that it was going to be an open and shut case as they were happy that I would not let my ex have contact but that depending on what I decide to do with my current partner this would change things? Any advice would be helpful.
Its very odd with that history that he has shown no signs at all in 18 months – has he had any therapy/counselling or other kind of intervention work? That is a worrying history and it may lead to an investigation. However, if there has really been no signs of abusive behaviour in 18 months that suggests that he is managing his behaviour and the risks are therefore lower. I think you’ve just got to be honest and engage with the social workers and speak very openly and honestly to your partner. I would be very worried about why he had kept this secret from me – that does suggest he hasn’t really changed for the better.
He has had counselling and he was seeing a life coach who was helping him look at things more positively. It is worrying why he has hidden this from me and I have now found out that the conviction was actually this year, so while he has been in a relationship with me. I have now made the choice to end the relationship we had words last nite and I saw a different side to him and he became abusive towards me this scared me and I went and slept in my sons bed. Im now worried as we have just recently moved into a house together and the rent is expensive this was manageable together but Im not gonna be able to manage this on my own, which means looking for another house and uprooting again and I don’t know whether he will leave the home and we have a joint tenancy.
The new data protection laws are confusing and have ruined decent photographers work of families and children but still allow horrible images to appear randomly online. If you google anne frank a terrible image of her naked body will appear with her murdered body thrown in a ditch, kim phuc the little vietnames girl screaming naked in pain is still available on search engines, that is a past left for history books that we dont need to see, angelina jolies publicity stunt like princes dianas, why did she have to photograph herself with a naked african child tied to a pole for the press, thousands of publications posted that online and in print, white saviour saves poor black child isnt positive nor seeing him naked tied. The press get away with a lot of images they shouldnt be posting publicly but the laws allow images of children dead bodies murdered in the iraq war 2014, or mary ellen marks online and books sales of naked vulnerable teenage girls in wards to be publicly available and sale in book stores. Mothers on pinterest posting their kids naked babes and their friends kids.
Charities have been using images of children for years. Its important to protect children, however certain legislations and twitter campaigns damage matters and careers, as matt mentioned accusations turn into instigated hate attacking everything. They should apply these protections in films ban all children from performing no Drew in ET, look at the damage these child actors went through.
They have no evidence with myself 32 weeks I . Nobody knows what the LA case against us is. No findings made against us. We can prove every allegation wrong. Had a parenting assessment that didn’t actually assess our parenting but just criticism towards us. And was negative because we didn’t agree we abused the children. We have medical evidence to prove it.
Ya my wife had a brack down in Morgan county me n my angels were in bed in Madison county that night new hope police came to house 200 am he check on everything told me my wife was heading to hospital for mental illness dec.30 2020 he said everything check good here it happened in Morgan county n Madison county swan came check out n said everything passed told me I had to go in for drug test I agree n told truth I done thc 3 weeks ago the test in d o offers 2days later swan comes said I I failed 98% thc my angels were placed in safety till I passed I passed 1 week later them I ask can I have them I keep my end she told me after assessments what well I done started n it’s about desise aids tb anole my sex life nothing about thc drugs so she g mailed my swan I called swan she said didn’t get it I call assessments they say they did so what is this
For any person who believes in any conspiracy (of any kind, not just this one) evidence is what they believe, not what they see or what is real.
As Sarah said on Pink Tape, the time to Argue with People Who Are Wrong on the Internet is a waste.
“For any person who believes in any conspiracy (of any kind, not just this one) evidence is what they believe, not what they see or what is real”
When I witness (in hindsight) my GD legs broken during blood test procedures. Becuase the force used matched that explained by the expert paediatrician, not Orthopepaedic expert I might add. When I witness the forced positioning of my GD head (in hindsight) blocking her airway simulating a valsalvar manoevre and stretching cervical vessels likely to induce Intra cranial bleeding am I a conspiracist when I believe the medical personnel responsible should accountable and not her parents. The injuries sustained are more likely to have happened from these procedures than the parents. It was not in the medical staff involved best interest to have their eureka moment of child abuse challenged so they ended up with egg on their face. Like stopping an ocean liner, it was never going to happen.
What I saw was real but never allowed into an equation and therefore medical negligence and legal shenanigans involving a local authority recently slated by OFSTED railroaded an adoption through. Failure in health and social care that is to say the least shameful
I would urge that for this Site to have maximum impact that Moderators ensure that it does not become a platform for the severely disgruntled and angry to vent their upset in ways which cannot be verified – anecdotal reporting has its uses but for real progress to be made what is required is evidence / factual-based and verifiable comments.
The use of generalised comments as used by FASSIT UK may be correct but lack evidence – and I know that due to how the Family Courts operate that is difficult to substantiate – or not. We do have a legal system and the burdens of Proof have to be met – many will disagree with certain Court decisions but, equally, within the area of Safeguarding / Child Protection we are not dealing with an exact science.
This Forum, i believe, has the opportunity to really have a positive impact on improving practice – let us do all that we can to ensure that it becomes highly regarded as professionally and publicly credible – and is viewed as a ‘wise’ Forum.
I agree if we find ourselves over-run by unmoderated and wild accusations, this is tedious and unhelpful to anyone. But equally, I don’t want to give the impression that we are ‘running scared’ of any such accusations. I would like to leave them to stand so that we can attempt to challenge them. I think it will be a question of trial and error and finding the right balance – some people sadly have no interest in any debate on this very important issue and certainly no wish to provide substance for anything they say.
these people shall not be allowed to dominate this resource. But equally we do not want anyone to feel shut out.
that is my view, but I am one of many. It may be that a different majority view prevails in time. We shall need to wait and see how things develop.
Glad you found us! I recognise you from the carespace forum.
I agree with Sarah, we are only a week old and will review the comments/moderation policy as we age.
The whole reason this resource was set up was to challenge the kinds of views we have found to be increasingly pervasive from the likes of FASSIT and John Hemming in the child protection discourse. If by seeking to challenge those views we invite debate in the open where potentially dangerous views can be challenged then I suppose we are meeting our initial aim.
Well, I wouldn’t know what to answer to any single conspiracy theorist, because any answer I could give wouldn’t satisfy them.
What I can hope, for the future, is that this site will also give a voice to the “children”. Has any of you noticed that Fassit, justice for families, forcedadoption and the likes never include any “witness” evidence brought up by a child?
I think that the best option would be to credit or to discredit these parents for what they are. Only then, we would know if LA and Social services acted well or not.
Merlin, I don’t think we will ever reach the ‘hard core’ conspiracy theorists. I remain concerned about vulnerable parents who might read some of the CT stuff and be afraid. I think we can help them by dispelling a few myths.
And when complete transparency occurs in the family courts, which is what a lot of campaigners want, then all the horrible details of the cases WILL be on public display, including what the parents did or didn’t do. So I don’t want to try to ‘discredit’ parents; a lot of parents went through the care system themselves and had horrible times.
Hi I would just like to say my family suffered harrasment from child protection because I reported my childs disclosure of abuse he suffered at a family centre to the police I also got reosonable evedence to back up my claims of psychological damage done to my child by the child abusers who remain employed by the local authority. The local authoritys responce was to persecute me initialy acusing me of emotional abuse for reporting what my child said to the police!. Eventualy as a responce to my repeated complaints and concerns about other childeren who were exposed to the perpertraitors of my childs abuse social services asked a profecianal wittness to reveiw my childerens medical records and write a report stating I had munchousens by proxy and was a danger to my childeren my health visetor disagreed with this ‘diagnoses’ , in order to protect my childeren from psychological damage of being removed from myself I then had no option but to flee from the UK all actions by UK social services where made with the objective of protecting the child abusers and covering up for failures of the local authority to protect vurnerable childeren, I had my case handed over to EU social services and passed assesment by a qaulified psychologist who assesed me in person and had my case closed here. The corruption I experianced in the UK was on a level with stalins russia I wouldent believe it had I not experianced it first hand , a system to protect childeren completly malfunctioning due to corruption had I remained in the UK or conceided to the ‘blackmail’ that followed my departure to return by the official case handover date or have all 30k of my belongings ‘disposed of’ by the council. Then ultimetly my young childeren would have suffered the horrendus psychological damage caused by being forcibly removed from a loving caring protective parent. It is no suprise that parents finding themselves embrioled in such a corrupt goverment system are leaving the UK in order to retain childeren that the majority love and care for well. I have come accross many many other parents who say their childeren were removed from their care after they reported abuse or suspected abuse of their child this is. Contarery to the best interests of any victim of abuse whosebest chance of recovery from the trauma is to cut contact with the abuser and remain in the care of a trusted adult.
what was your lawyer doing? Why did you agree to an assessment by an expert instructed only by social services?
How did a psychologist from the EU get your case closed in an English court?
How were you ‘blackmailed’ to return by threats to seize your assets?
Why do you say it was ‘corruption’ – what was their aim in trying to take your child?
I am sorry if I sound sceptical, but this doesn’t make sense.
I have every respect for your view but you must respect others who have experienced wrong doings. I myself wrote on here and you deleted it! ( It wasn’t in reply to anything and wasn’t part of innocent deletion because it was my experience and the only reply I had was your own but still you deleted it.) I was a child that was taken into care from loving parents and the lies and deceit that were written and said, was outrageous.
There may not be an objective for a few, that are there just because they are horrid people and abuse the the standing and trust they are given by the state to protect children but do the exact opposite. There are however some really wonderful people in social work but you cannot assume that this is the case with them all! There are cases some not reported on but some that are. Nobody wants to open the can worms and admit to any embarrassing wrong doings within their own departments. The best interest of every child should be met. Some social worker prefer to accuse and destroy again I hope it’s the minority but what is wrong with a little transparency and experts held to account. “Social workers have immense powers and terrible responsibilities. If they make a wrong decision, the consequences can be catastrophic. A failure to intervene when a child is being violently abused by its parents can lead to the death of that child, as was shown so tragically in the Baby P case. But a decision to take children away from parents who are, in fact, loving can have almost equally awful consequences.
”http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/10580028/Child-protection-services-A-mothers-diary-records-the-awful-death-of-a-child-in-care.html. http://cllrkevinedwards.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/over-to-you-carwyn-jones.html. http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/National/article1420225.ece. http://blogs.channel4.com/victoria-macdonald-on-health-and-social-care/lost-family-told-care-granddaughter/1725. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/mother-tongue/8349748/Social-services-took-my-children.html http://www.thurrockgazette.co.uk/news/10921484.Couple____win____their_baby_girl_back_from_social_services_after_she_was_taken_away_for_NINE_months/?ref=var_0
Now as with social services, newspapers have an editors code of practice (http://www.pcc.org.uk/cop/practice.html) they must adhere to. If they don’t they can be prosecuted. They cannot lawfully print lies but I’m not saying they don’t sometimes ……. But then social worker have a code practice they must adhere to, hopefully they do, but there are some that don’t I can assure you.
I apologised for deleting your comment and asked you to share your experiences again. I did not hear further from you. I am sorry you have had such a horrible experience and you are welcome to post here if you think it could help other people or would even be a healing experience for you.
However, I am afraid I cannot agree that I ‘must’ respect others who have suffered wrong doing. This appears to imply that anyone who asserts they have suffered a wrong doing is telling the truth. To simply agree with other people’s assertions on that basis can be dangerous.
I do not deny that there are many people who have suffered from mistakes, laziness or incompetence. I hope I do not disrespect their pain but when someone like Ian Josephs continually makes assertions which are simply untrue and which are going to frighten vulnerable people, I cannot just sit back and let that go unchallenged.
I do not assume all social workers are wonderful. Its very dangerous to make blanket assumptions about an entire group. Nor do I think there is anything wrong with transparency and holding people to account for their mistakes or their carelessness. I don’t think anyone who contributes to this site thinks that. We all want to be involved in a debate about how to improve the system, not get distracted by these pointless arguments about things which aren’t real.
I don’t accept that the entire child protection system is routinely corrupt, that children are ‘stolen’ for cash bonuses etc, etc. And I cannot ‘respect’ anyone who puts forward that view without at least attempting some sensible argument.
Social workers do have a code of practice, and you can read about it here https://childprotectionresource.online/category/making-a-complaint-about-a-professional/
Hi, I think you missed my point, I to do not assume the whole system is corrupt but I do know that parts are (parts meaning the people of corruption within the system! Which can’t be denied, it’s hard granted because these people seem credible and why wouldn’t they be believed after all they are social workers :/) BUT as I said before there are some equally wonderful people who work within the system and it’s hard to tell them apart.
I know there is a code of practice that social workers have to adhere to, but as above, so do the papers and media who are NOT allowed to print lies without the prospect of being prosecuted. By saying that these social workers adhere to the code of practice all the time is like saying newspapers don’t print lies, which in essence we know that sometimes they too, get it wrong but with so many of the media reporting on these wrong doings, something definitely needs to be done! The ones that are in social work that are also dishonest, on a power trip, out to cause malice need to be weeded out and quick before we are failing far to many of our future generations because as said before Social workers have immense powers and terrible responsibilities. If they make a wrong decision, the consequences can be catastrophic. A failure to intervene when a child is being violently abused by its parents can lead to the death of that child, as was shown so tragically in the Baby P case. But a decision to take children away from parents who are, in fact, loving can have almost equally awful consequences.”
I agree with you and think it an utter tragedy that a necessary debate has seemingly been hi jacked by those who want to paint some grand picture of a conspiracy at the highest level.
I am amazed you deleted another comment before adding your own! I deemed it as relevant. Are you now the overseer of relevance to this is issue? Is your opinion the only one that counts? By editing as you see fit is not having a broad view of information in any way shape or form! I’m also astonished to hear you have been given NO proof of any wrong doings (Are you blind or just unwilling to see) The links I provided previously were proof of some corruption written by plenty of newspapers including the BBC, Telegraph… the list goes on(who are not allowed to lawfully print lies by the way). Now I could provide you with my own paper work and say most of it is lies but what proof do I have? Since it is written by social workers and taken as fact but I know my parents didn’t do any of the the things written by them, to me! Then it just comes down to words against words with the written statement of no truths by the social workers! I was the child subject to emotional abuse of the system, by the state! Abuse is abuse and I was taken from my loving parents because of their lies! There are many of us corrupted children too. But can we prove it NO because all we have got is experience and our word against theirs but I know, I was only ever abused by the state and was robbed of my loving home and family.
Sorry, don’t know what you mean. The only comments I have deleted are those which I thought were plainly mad and I deleted some ‘innocent’ comments which didn’t make sense once the mad ones were deleted. I did delete one comment of yours, and invited you to make your points again. Maybe another site administrator deleted your comment, I invite you to post it again.
I have refused to permit only one comment so far, because I could not understand it and I don’t want too much of that kind of thing clogging up the site. But it wasn’t a comment from you.
Of course my opinion ‘is not the only one that counts’ but as I am one of the site administrators here and do all the work in my own time and for no payment, then I will delete and add as I see fit; the only objections about the content I permit or disallow that will carry any weight with me are those of the other site administrators.
As I have repeatedly said, you are very welcome to contribute to the site in any way you like as long as you are polite and provide as much evidence as you can for any really serious claims about corruption etc. I appreciate that evidence is not always easy to find. I also don’t think any thing from the Telegraph or the Mail carries any weight I am afraid. They have been hysterical scaremongers for too long and have lost all credibility. In my opinion.
To add, these statements made by these social workers were backed up by experts I had never even met!!!
I agree about the mail but the BBC? The Sunday times? The Thurrock gazette?
The comment was a short comment (an after add) at the bottom of my last comment on the 4th of July (there were 2 comment one long and a shorter one, the latter removed previous to your comment. I waited to reply because I was angry at the fact it was the second of my input deleted, neither of which was abusive or irrelevant. But I am proof that some social workers lie and the experts that backed them up are swayed solely by what is written, by them. Granted this was in the late 90’s but I am aware of many others who have been subjected to the same. My success’s as an adult lay largely on my intelligence and the foundations my parents built and no credit is given to the state. I am angry because this abuse is not heard or disregarded because it doesn’t fit the given profile of being saved by social care but I feel my story holds as much weight as someone abused at home without the involvement of social work. My and other stories from masses of people unheard, shout the words plainly “WE ARE TAKING THE WRONG ONES!”. Can I say again. So we can get it right. This is no game, this is life or death. Get it right because if you did something when the facts are there, you would not need to lie when nothing is found.
Social workers have immense powers and terrible responsibilities. If they make a wrong decision, the consequences can be catastrophic. A failure to intervene when a child is being violently abused by its parents can lead to the death of that child, as was shown so tragically in the Baby P case. But a decision to take children away from parents who are, in fact, loving can have almost equally awful consequences.
I agree with your last paragraph. I am not sure what more I can say. The best decisions are not always made but I believe that is because SW are over loaded with cases and too much box ticking is required. If you want to post links again, please feel free.
Thank you Sarah.
Your comment with all the links is still there? posted on July 3rd at 5:35?
Again you miss read. I said the 4th of July, a short after comment after the long comment. Do you do this often?
I may well misread things if I am in a hurry. I don’t pay forensic attention to the comments section. You seem to be very angry that I have deleted your comments. I have not. If it is important, post it again.
Sorry. That was bad tempered of me. sometimes I need to step away from the keyboard. I am genuinely sorry that you feel your comments have not been treated fairly. I stress that I will not delete comments unless they are very rude or display characteristics of unhinged conspiracy theorising. there is no wish here to stifle genuine debate.
What advice would you give to a parent/carer who is facing alleged CP issues and has been denied the right to reconvene CP Conference whos, Formal complaint re process and false allegations have not been allowed to progress through the statutory complaints process and who is facing the PLO process not being able to challenge any of the documents from the section 47 through to the core croup minutes
My advice would be to get a good lawyer, one you can trust and work with and challenge what is happening with their help.
I am in the same position as you … four years later….the system is still very poor and remains a guilty until proven innocent strategem. It is legalised abuse by the state and no other way of describing what is happening to us.
Im curious, did you ever find a good lawyer and do you have any advice for a family new to all of this and suffering, please? Where does one find a ‘good lawyer’ in this area of expertise?
Many thanks for any help you can offer
No-one denies that at one point LAs were incentivised financially to increase adoptions – but it was adoptions of children already in care, not forced adoptions. An adoption without the parents’ consent tends to be extremely expensive when you take into account legal fees, fostering costs, experts’ fees, social worker time and the like, but I have never seen any of the conspiracy theorists do the sums as to whether the financial incentive actually outweighs these costs.
I agree – it would be interesting to see Ian Josephs for example, do the sums. But I won’t be holding my breath…
When what is now known a s Forced Adoption was started in1973 as policy it was sold to LA’s as saving them huge amounts of money from their budgets.
Child in Care £5,000 pa
Adoption fee to agency £8,000
You recoup your money in less than 2 years.
It was at1973 prices but it was a lot of money in those days.
That calculation is totally irrelevant. It leaves out of consideration the costs of fostering and opposed adoption proceedings, including the cost of lawyers and experts. Also it includes no reference to the alleged financial bonus which certain people puts forward as the motivation for forced adoptions. Given that foster care can cost in the region of £400 a week (in fact up to £900 for specialist placements) and the costs of opposed adoption proceedings can run into tens of thousands of pounds – indeed hundreds of thousands if they go to appeal – the bonus would have to be absolutely staggering to make this exercise worthwhile.
I wouldn’t be so quick to judge that people believing in forced adoption do not care about the children. I would imagine many of them are possibly parents who believe to have been wronged by SS. I know that if my wife and I lost our son it would devastate us. Saying that these people do not care about the children (quite possibly their own) is somewhat callous.
I am intrigued by this comment by Philip Measures – “within the area of Safeguarding / Child Protection we are not dealing with an exact science.”????????
If a court has the power to remove a child or children then the the process mist be even more rigorous than trial by jury. It must be so close to absolute certainty so as to be beyond reproach. There is no space for opinion – it must be 100% factual!! Correct 100% all the time.
It cannot make mistakes!!
I am an observer but mky views are as valid as anyone else’s – it might be my children (unlikely now due to their age) or grandchildren that are affected.
Andrew, I am intrigued as to how you think something that relies upon the judgment of fallible human beings can ever be ‘correct 100% all the time’.
If you are aware of such a system currently operating, I would really like to know what it is as I think we could all learn from it.
We must stop meeting like this!!
My point is that it must err irrevocably and always on the side of keeping families together unless there is clear, substantiated proof that a child is severely at risk. If you don’t then you have a problem to rectify it afterwards when new information may become available.
If a case of abuse won’t stand up to criminal charges then it shouldn’t stand up in any court quite frankly. And if a court is so sure of abuse, then charge the perpretators.
I think the debate about the burden and standard of proof is an interesting one. I think we have struck the right balance between keeping children safe but not removing without a rigourous examination of the issues. But if anyone would like to contribute a longer post about this issue, I do think it is worth debating.
For me, a lesser standard of proof is saying we’ll take 100 children for adoption and accept that 5-10% may be ‘iffy’ or perhaps ‘wrong’. That to me is incorrect.
Following your reasoning Andrew I wouldn’t be a rape survivor, given that I am in the 90% of rape victims who never see any justice.
Therefore, your judgement about matters of abuse is clearly FLAWED.
Evidence about rape and abuse cases is so difficult to find that you would probably ruin so many children that you can’t believe.
Again, I am convinced every day more that forced adoption theorists are essentially a group of bad, disgruntled parents who cannot admit they are bad parents.
Conspiracy of my boots, my mum would say….
That’s where you’re wrong. I’m none of those, nor am I a conspiracy theorist.
You think it’s OK then to have the (for argument’s sake) 5% collateral damage of wrongful adoptions/miscarriages of justice to prevent a Baby P (or any other child).
Or a Ched Evans to move on to rape trials? Who will hopefully soon be cleared.
It is certainly not ‘ok’. But my worry is, if you adopt a lower standard of proof then you will end up with more than 5% of children left in abusive and dangerous situations. As ever, it is all about balancing risk and harm. Sometimes we don’t get the balance right.
You might assert that you’re none of those, but the comment you just made “it is ok to have the 5% of miscarriages of justice” is the one made by the false allegations bandwagon every time they try to reform the justice system concerning DV and rape cases…. And FYI all rape and abuse apologists insist that to keep the 5% of innocent people out of jail, well.. 90% of rapists are too.
I know the abuse issue is off topic but the conclusion could be the same: we want a better a system for everybody, with less mistakes as possible. A system that guarantee 100% of right decisions doesn’t exist.
If to avoid the percentage of mistakes you bring down the whole system already in place, you could probably avoid the 5% of miscarriages and also… The rest though.
When I was a child, social services didn’t exist at all where I was born. Parents were free to inflict any kind of abuse and horror on their children, children were their property.
If you want to go back to such a situation..well, be careful what you wish for.
So you are indeed saying that you accept collateral damage. What’s the effect of allowing adoptions incorrectly. It’s like this:
It’s also not really a lower balance of proof when there is no proof is it? And when new evidence is brought that is the time to begin talking about adoption reversals. When they find out in later life they were taken away wrongly from their real parents – the adoptive parents will be the ones that will be hurt big time. Ive put you an article on twitter that shows that.
A Baby P or L or Q is not a reason to tighten regulations around levels of proof. At the end of the day you wouldn’t want that to happen to anyone on a murder charge. Proof is proof – the thresholds should not be different just because we’re talking about children.
And not considering parents, aunts, uncles as guardians just because they don’t accept the guilt of their relations is not a reason to place outside the family.
Well actually Sarah will (I think) assert that I am none of those. I am not a rape apologist (other than believing Ched Evans is innocent) and I have no children in care. I have so many kids that Im never sure when the front door is opening next!!!
I am merely someone very concerned at what is going on. You still havent said anything other than to make me believe you feel whatever small percentage of collateral is OK as long as most child abusers are caught. Funny how so few charges ensue from these cases!!!
Not sure what your Mum’s boots have to do with this 🙂
I feel a bit like a cracked record. I accept that you have to have a system and I accept that everyone wants (vainly) for it to be perfect.
The one element you must have though is a safety net ie what you do when it goes t*ts up. After all, if someone is imprisoned wrongfully for rape (your chosen analogy) and found to be innocent – they will be released immediately and receive compensation. Forced adoption has to invent a recourse to react to these cases other than just sighing and pouring a cup of tea.
I would like things to be perfect but its a completely irrational thing to ‘want’ because I don’t believe it is ever achievable. All we can do is aim for the least worst option. Maybe it is time for balance to shift. The problem is the debate has become so polarised and some of those ‘against’ the current system, I am afraid, do their cause enormous harm by often coming across as utterly irrational and very unpleasant.
Of course it’s become polarised. You’re talking about human beings’ flesh and blood. It’s become nasty out of desperation. That will continue I suspect until something gives that makes everyone sit up and pause.
And I’m nothing if not cuddly!!
Not all parents are bad parents like im not i had my kids took off me and placed in foster care and there still in there and by the way forced adoption dose exist coz there trying it with my kids if you never had kids in the system you dont know how it feels having to leave thrm after seeing them i only get to see my babys for 3hours a week how is that fair and so your saying im a bad dad then coz i belive in all the conspirisy theries ?
I haven’t accused anyone of being a bad parent because they believe in conspiracy theories. But I have said that I don’t think there is evidence to support systemic corruption from the top down and a deliberate plan to steal people’s children for money. And I have said that when parents make these kind of comments, they do their case enormous harm. But that alone certainly doesn’t make them a ‘bad parent’.
I am sorry that you are going through this and all I can suggest is that you get a good lawyer and try to understand what exactly is being said about your parenting, so you can work to show them wrong.
Comments on Leicester ‘Baby Z’ Serious case review of 2-2-2104.
This is interesting in that the following appears:
‘…As it appears that the GP was considering non-accidental injury (see above) this is a flawed response; whilst the colouring and aging of bruises require expert medical opinion and all safeguarding medical examinations are carried out by experienced paediatricians, the GP should not make a direct referral to paediatricians. A referral should be made to Children’s Social Care and thus Community Paediatricians would become involved as part of the safeguarding process….’
The clear guidance is that where there are Safeguarding concerns GP’s should refer to Children’s Social Care and not to Paediatricians – the logic being that Children’s Social Care will then refer to the relevant Community Paediatrician (nothing is said about referrals to Police).
I attach the relevant Link and just wonder if others would like to see if I am correct in raising this as an issue – I would have thought that GP – Paediatrician Referral was something to be encouraged. Also whether passing potentially serious concerns which may well require an immediate specialist paediatric assessment to Children’s Social Care to action that is an unnecessary step rather than GP to Paediatrician and then Paediatrician to Police / Children’s Social Care.
Our Systems must be easy to follow and not have built in delays / unnecessary actions.
Click on BLUE ‘LINK’ in 3rd. Column.
This may be of interest?
What were your lawyers doing? If the LA tries to act contrary to a court order, you need to get it back before the court urgently. Did you get advice on an appeal?
This sounds horrifying – if any representative from a local authority lied to you about whether or not your appeal had succeeded then there should be any number of legal avenues you can use to bring them to account. Free standing human rights application? Misfeasance in public office? If what you say is true then it needs urgent investigation. Did you not have any legal representation at the appeal hearing itself?
Thanks for raising this Philip, that does indeed seem an odd way to proceed. Shouldn’t the GP be referring to both? Interested to hear other’s views.
But people found innocent get to walk free and do at least get tried in a proper court with a proper level of proof (hopefully). Family courts and adoption currently have no comeback or correction method for miscarriages of justice.
But that isn’t true is it? There are clear mechanisms of appeal. If what you mean is that adoption orders once made are rarely reversed, I agree. But the reasons for that are due to the harm that would be done to a child to be moved from an adoptive placement back to birth parents who by now, sadly, may be strangers to him or her.
Yes I know that. That still sounds mortally flawed to me though. Im sure something could be done. I do believe some adoptions have been overturned in secret but maybe not with babies – probably older children.
I know a lot of older children do seek out their birth parents and this can cause problems if not handled sensitively by all. But I am not sure what you mean by adoptions ‘overturned in secret’ – do you mean via a court process or by a child wanting to live with his/her birth parents?
I mean I believe some adoptions have been overturned but not publicised due to setting precedent.. From about the age of 12 it’s very hard for courts to stop children doing as they wish.
These two just upped and left too
Investigate Core Assets the private adoption and fostering agency who’s sister company Carter Brown supply expert witnesses. If there was no money to be made, this would end overnight. Sadly, if you have family courts, judges, solicitors, barristers who practice family law they all want a payday. So children are need otherwise there wouldn’t be a role for them all.
So are you saying that children are only taken into care to keep private adoption and fostering agencies going? That no child is ever at risk of injury or death at the hands of his parents or carers? Do you think Daniel Pelka should have been taken into care?
I dont think it’s at all relevant to quote pelkas, baby Ps etc. These children will continue to be abused and will die. The issue is not with those cases but with those that are borderline and based on opinion.
We are never going to have a system that is 100% perfect all of the time.
Ultimately we are in a position where CPS always going to have to make difficult and borderline decisions. If those decisions are wrong you could be left in a situation where a child has been removed from the family home for poor reasons it you could have a situation with a dead child or one living in terror for their whole childhood.
At the moment the courts have decided that removing a child is the lesser of 2 evils and I agree.
This doesn’t mean that I think making wrong decisions is ok and should just be accepted. I think we should always be looking for new ways it do the best for families. That said I really do think that the advise on here is invaluable and can be used to get a good results. Learning how to work with the system we currently have is the best chance a family has of staying together.
What a show of empathy Andrew. If you don’t mind I will copy and paste your comment “these children will continue to be abused and will die” on an abuse/rape forum I am a member of as evidence of what society thinks……
As opposed to your belief that all assumptions of guilt are true? I understand that no conviction does not equate to lack of guilt. At the same time you have to understand that not everyone accused of something is automatically guilty. I am sorry for what has happened in your past, but at some point you have to grow as person instead of becoming embittered and painting with such broad brush strokes.
No Matt, you are misunderstanding what I wrote. And as many non-survivors you think that victims are ‘bitter’ instead of ‘knowledgeable’ about certain issues.
I might say, what you posted is usually the ‘defensive argument’ used by people who think abuse is rare as opposed as common. You’ve no idea how many of friends have confessed to be abused as children, later in adulthood.
I don’t paint anything with such broad strokes, I KNOW as opposed to your “I think” or “I believe”.
Well given that my abuse is both in childhood and adulthood, to grow as a person sounds like an insult Matt. I’ve grown to be ‘this’ person, how wrong or right that can appear to others. Maybe it can also be food for thought, Matt.
Have you thought about using constructive arguments instead of aggressively attacking others? You say you don’t use broad strokes yet you and several others are the most polarized in the comments. Try given reasoned arguments whether for or against such issues. Have reports and other material to back up what is said. This advice goes for Winston as well.
Instead of attacking other lets try and help each other, sound good?
Best to get the madness off the front page I think.
The idea and site seem useful. Thanks.
Thanks! I think you are right….
Andrew, I am sorry to read what appears to be such a dismissive comment about the ‘pelkas and baby Ps’. I hope that wasn’t your intent.
I hope we can continue to try to improve systems to safeguard such children so they don’t have to suffer and die. The ‘borderline’ cases can only benefit from such improvement.
I don’t agree we should just accept these children will die. Victoria Climbie, Peter Connolley and Daniel Pelka were all abused over a long period of time and could and should have been rescued.
Don’t forget Fiona Anderson which came after all the baby P reforms.
It wasn’t dismissive. My point is that those cases would still occur even if there were no wrongful adoptions. Ergo you shouldn’t justify adoptions based on the actions of child murderers.
I disagree. These children are killed because of failings in the system designed to protect them – social workers did not challenge or investigate sufficiently, different agencies didn’t share information with each other, the risks the parents posed were not analysed sufficiently or at all.
Improving the child protection system as a whole will hopefully prevent these kind of child killings, and will be of benefit to the more ‘borderline’ cases.
True. I don’t think we should accept that children can left to be abused over many months and there is no effective intervention.
But in my view, those who spread fear and distrust by repeating unfounded conspiracy theories are a big part of the problem, encouraging families like Fiona Anderson’s not to engage or co-operate.
I am shortly going to remove comments from this page that illustrate 3 or more of the characteristics outlined here http://www.urban75.org/info/conspiraloons.html unless anyone has any compelling arguments as to why they should remain.
I think there is a real danger such unhelpful contributions will detract from the serious purpose of this site.
We will continue to gather together comments and respond in our response to commentators section
to rebut any accusations that we censor and are not prepared to engage in debate.
EDIT – I have had to remove some ‘innocent’ comments that no longer make sense when the offending comments have been deleted.
I dont think urban75 is a safe reference point for any website given that is largely a haven for marxist loons
Even ‘Marxist loons’ can talk sense some of the times. I agree with every word of their post.
I recollect this site lambasting our group for the following comment: Fassit are finding that social workers are removing hundreds of children from innocent parents each year through sheer incompetence and organisational failure what could best be described as blatant discrepancies between the evidence presented at Court by expert witnesses (social services; health; education etc.) and the actual events or material facts of the case..”
Well now you can lambast the High Court Judges as well who said today that Judges and social workers have been conspiring to remove children unjustly from their parents.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2562249/It-never-happen-Appeal-judge-slams-cut-paste-decision-family-court-led-social-workers-taking-baby-parents-unjustly.html#ixzz2tihUKGaC
Thanks for that. We will post a response ASAP in our response to commentators section as we agree this is an important issue which requires rather more responsible reporting than we can ever hope from the Daily Mail.
Here is the actual judgement if anyone would rather not take the Mail as gospel.
I find this sentence to be of great concern.
65. Whilst I might be able to understand why such methods may have been developed, I am profoundly alarmed by their existence. Informal inquiries reveal, anecdotally, that the practices I have described are not confined to this area but are widespread across the country.
I think the new transparency guidelines are certainly needed if this might be common practice.
I will try and get a longer response up by the weekend – it is true that Magistrates often ask for assistance in drafting their ‘facts and reasons’. This is because they have to provide written justification for all their decisions and often the drafting of this document can take many hours, leaving parents waiting around court until very late in the evening. In an attempt to short cut this process I have often been asked to draft something that can be agreed to save time. I can see why this is criticised as poor practice on occasion but it is NOT the evidence of Judge/lawyer collusion that the Mail seems to think.
For e.g. if I act for parents and the LA want to submit a document with which I don’t agree, then I object and get it amended.
I can also understand that by baby number 8 everyone might be getting a bit weary. Of course, that doesn’t excuse poor practice, but it doesn’t automatically equate to corruption.
But hopefully this will be able to form part of what we hope to do with this site – provide some balance and necessary discussion about what we need to change and why.
I have posted a proper response.
I see my comment has been deleted! It was of personal experience. I am now wondering if this comment with be published. How very one sided it will be if neither comments come back, to get a better rounded view. I know from personal experience that social workers will lie, if they have got it wrong, in fear of being reprimanded or worse. Yes their is a code of conduct to follow but I can assure you not everybody is playing ball.
Sorry, yours may have been one of the ‘innocent’ comments that got deleted in a purge of the ‘mad’ ones (which were putting people off – some have been moved to Response to Commentators) If you would like to share your personal experience with us, that would be great. I am hoping to get a post up on codes of conduct and making a complaint etc so if you want to give your perspective that would be helpful. All we are interested in are the facts; we want to get as close to the truth as is possible and discuss how we support what is well done in the system but tackle what is badly done.
I have personal experience of social workers lying, falsely accusing, and altering past records to suit their agenda. I saw a family lawyer to get advice, when we had politely declined further “assistance” from them (which was only ever because of our disabled daughter) and the lawyer told me that they are known to alter records pretty all the time. She was a very reputable solicitor. My children wrote letters for me to bring to meetings at which social services were present, about how unhappy they were at school, the social workers barely looked at them and conveniently omitted to comment on their existence in their report. I have a reputable witness who heard a social worker say to me that they would “not say anything against schools”. This same witness saw how they stated one thing then reneged afterwards. My eldest child almost had a nervous breakdown from her school not supporting her with bullying problems. Instead, social services did all they could to make it look like I was making things up and two social workers who never even met me or knew my family, started citing potential for emotional harm from me to my daughter, when I was the only person emotionally supporting her and seeking help for her. These accusations were despite clinical reports on file from professionals who had spoken to my daughter alone when she said her distress was because of school. Social workers also argued against clinical reports of diagnoses and told me that I had written notes my daughter had written. They just told so many lies. In front of me a student social worker tried to push my daughter to go off alone with her and even when my daughter point blank told her she didn’t need to, she wouldn’t drop it. I attended a meeting with both children at social services’ request with two social workers, they horrifically recorded utter lies about the meeting, falsely stating I had prevented the children talking, when I had witnesses (it was held in a public place) that this was utter lies. When I got copy files I was horrified at the perpetual lies they had told. Every report they wrote was full of factual errors, and when I emailed them corrections they ignored them. In case you want to say I am posting without evidence, obviously no-one is going to post their confidential documentation online to prove what they say, but I have not exaggerated or misrepresented any of what happened. I am very factual and this is the truth. As a parent who had done not a thing wrong, I have found first-hand what it is like to get sucked into a system with an automatic blame culture, where they will try to build a case against you (and I could see they were getting towards MSBP/FII by the nature of correspondence I saw). I had to raise a complaint with the council and all they did was send it to social services themselves. There is no independent complaints process. I could say so much more, they were responsible for causing both my children much distress and I regret ever allowing them into our lives. I even attended a safeguarding training workshop during which a role-play was acted out and the CAFCASS person there automatically assumed against the family in a situation deliberately left ambiguous, no other professional present stood up to say any different. They do not understand particular disabilities and certainly never acted in the best interests of our children. Thankfully they are now out of our lives but I will warn anyone I can, that no matter how innocent you are and how good a parent you are, you are taking a big risk in any involvement with social services.
I am sorry to hear you and your family had such a bad experience.
Thank you Sarah. So am I, and the sad thing is, that experiences like this make you lose entire trust in professionals. When they are supposed to be the ones you can trust, look to for advice and support and have an equal partnership with, this is a sad state of affairs.
I am seeing this play out in the King family case. Something has gone very badly wrong there. It does seem that there is increasing mistrust between professionals and parents. I wish I had an answer about what the best thing would be to tackle this. More transparency? More accountability?
I second this. Our experience with social services has been of repeated duplicity, coupled with an inability not to tarnish every innocent remark with their extremely calloused, bureaucratised, ‘trained’ and occluded vision. Their complaints process is entirely corrupt, designed only to protect them and exhaust the complainant. What is as depressing is that it is generally considered pointless to raise a protest against this behaviour unless something very severe has happened to you – as the general opinion is that the law will protect them in any way it can…. ‘for the sake of the children’…
In our case social services presented plenty of false evidence to the Stage 3 hearing, and since they had picked the underqualified and inexperienced panel, it was never challenged. The LGO knowingly received false evidence from social services, but did not comment on it. ( Social services sent them a false chronology of events, that was proved false by audio recordings.)
There must be a mechanism for making these people, if not honest, then at least accountable, if there is to be any hope of regaining trust in the social contract.
Sorry Carol, I have edited your comment to remove the particular names you have given. This is because I don’t know what kind of things have been found or not found proved against this person so I have edited his name out. This may be over cautious of me but I don’t want to name people as ‘guilty’ of anything unless I am very clear this is actually the case – or I and/or others involved in this site could be in trouble. But I hope you agree that removal of the name does not detract from your point about SW not having legal knowledge – which is true and a good point. That means they have to be able to trust the lawyers who advise them.
That sounds very odd indeed. Why would a solicitor be asking for payment for ‘medical expertise’? Do you mean the solicitor was asking the LA to reimburse his firm for money paid out to a medical expert?
I am a 55 year old grandmother of 10 I am respectable hard working have my own house I would not hurt a fly but because my sons ex partners druggie parents told social workers I held my sons ex partners arms behind her back while my 6 feet 4 tall son hit her who is 5 feet 3 and slim she as told social services that I never did this and told them her family are lying she as had a baby which me and my husband and family can not see and would cost me a lot of money to take to court she wanted my sons name for her baby but they have taken her away and got an indrunction against my son so he now as no power over what happens to is daughter if she did not do what they said they would of took her daughter away we don’t no which way to turn
If she got an injunction against your son then that means a court accepted what she was saying was true – did you son argue against the injunction? Did he give evidence in court? This is going to be a real problem as if the court has made a finding that the injunction is necessary, that has immediate and serious implications for what kind of contact he could have with his child. And obviously, if you don’t accept the findings of the court, you will also be seen as a risk. You would have to deal with this in court, but I accept it is difficult when people don’t have access to legal aid or cannot afford lawyers.
Sorry, I don’t think I can offer any helpful comments. I don’t understand this post. What is the reference to ‘7-10’??
Educated Justice: It is vital to be accurate, and not mud-slinging. (Our case against social services is all about their slap-dash manner and inaccuracy, which has caused us great and unwarranted distress.) The GMC probe – as far as I can tell- failed on all counts at the tribunal hearing which ended on 28th Feb. 2014, and the sensationalism of the Daily Mail paints a false picture. Yes, he seems to have some very unsavoury ‘cavalier’ attitudes, and I don’t like his callous ‘pragmatic’ approach to making money out of misery, but – he was not struck off, and all the charges against him were found unproved.
Perhaps this highlights underlying problems within our professional tribunal system – I can’t say… but I won’t pronounce judgment on him, any more than I would expect judgement to be pronounced on our family, on the basis of misleading misinformation.
Thanks, that is very interesting. I am ashamed to say I did not realise the tribunal had been and gone and that he wasn’t struck off.
With regard to Carol’s story, it is difficult to make out what is what. Perhaps a preview button before final posting might help give people a chance to ensure clarity.
I am not sure that an inability to preview a post is the problem here. I think it is difficult when you are very enmeshed in a situation to be able to take a step back and present it clearly so that someone outside it can understand what is going on. Carol – it might help understanding if you can set out your story in chronological order with dates. I am afraid I am finding what you are saying very confusing at the moment.
Sorry, I am still finding this quite hard to follow. Are you saying your grandson went to hospital for investigation for possible injuries to his brain, it was then alleged that someone had hurt him and there is a medical note saying that he had hit his head on the fridge but this wasn’t actually about your grandchild? Then court proceedings were taken out using another child’s name and you weren’t allowed to refer to any medical records that supported your case that your grandson had a medical problem?
I just don’t understand why medical evidence would not be allowed as the hospital was ‘not party to the case’. Any medical evidence about your grandson is obviously relevant and should have been examined in the care proceedings.
If what you are saying is true then it does sound like a deplorable cover up of epic proportions. But I am still struggling to understand what you are saying happened. Is my précis accurate?
Then that does sound appalling. No decision about a child’s injury or illness which leads to that child being removed from home should ever be made without full disclosure of all medical records and expert opinion on what those records say. I am sorry to read that things appear to have gone so badly wrong in your case.
I have also edited your comment to remove the child’s name.
Section 33 3(a)-(b) says (I paraphrase) While a care order is in force with respect to a child, the LA designated by the order shall have parental responsibility for the child and have to power to determine the extent to which a parent (or other person with PR) can exercise their PR
Section 33 7 (a)(b) says ‘While a care order is in force with respect to a child no person may cause the child to be known by a new surname or remove him from the UK’.
So they can’t rely on section 33 as giving them the power to change his surname as it explicitly denies them that power.
You might find something useful in this post https://childprotectionresource.online/i-have-been-wrongly-accused-of-harming-my-child/
But it sounds like you do need to sit down with a lawyer who has access to all the paperwork. Have a look at the legal advice section in our links and resources too.
Consider presenting the information about how the social workers – it has to be named individuals listed in the hcpc register – have been guilty of malpractice. This will initiate an investigation via hcpc, where if what they have done is considered heinous enough, they may be struck off as unfit to practice – but equally importantly, it is a cost effective way of having your case reviewed, and if they are found to be at fault, this information will stand you in good stead in any other court proceedings. Also consider asking for any inaccuracies in reports to be properly corrected – and if/when that is ignored, apply to the ICO ( Information commissioners office). The DPA ( toothless though it is in many areas) does specify accuracy and proportionality as necessary components of data files. Don’t expect much from the ICO though they are by their own admission paper tigers, and any decision they make will have to be enacted via court.
Thanks Carol, I am glad you have found this helpful. C probably is more up to speed than I am in this field!
Carol, I have just amended that post about bringing public bodies to account as I wasn’t clear about the strict time limits for a JR claim. I have added this ‘A further difficulty is the strict time limit specified by CPR Part 54.5(1). You must make your application for permission to apply for judicial review promptly and in any event not later than 3 months after the grounds upon which the claim is based first arose.’
so it may be that a human rights claim is more appropriate for you as I suspect you are going to be out of time for JR.
Sorry, I didn’t appreciate that the Judge had given that steer towards Judicial Review. I hope you get some results.
You will need to be more specific, I am not sure what you mean here.
Not that I am aware of.
Sorry, I am not aware of any rule of law that permits a court or indeed anyone to unilaterally or arbitrarily change a child’s name – although it does often happen that a child’s name is mis-spelled or the wrong surname gets used when the parents aren’t married. I really don’t know what has gone on in your case, I can only agree with C’s suggestions that you try the route of getting access to the data held by the hospital which may go to help you with your assertion that the wrong child’s medical records were relied upon.
It has never been my experience that the court deliberately adopts a form of naming to ‘identify’ the children of unmarried parents. But when parents don’t marry it is fairly common, but certainly not a universal practice, for the parents themselves to refer to their child by a combination of both mother and father’s surnames.
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Your experience sounds utterly dreadful – though not I am afraid to say entirely unexpected. When bad mistakes have been made, a kind of bureaucratic protectionism kicks in. “Pour sauver les autres”…
The information that you give seems generally to derive from a long time ago – 1997. What has happened in the interim? Has the case remained active?
You say in your post of 1st September that you are now going for judicial review. Has an application been made? By you as a ‘litigant in person’, or do you have a solicitor/barrister in place?
As Sarah has pointed out, one of the greatest inhibitors in terms of application for JR is that the decision must almost always be challenged within 90 days – otherwise the judge may rule you out of time.
I am having trouble getting things straight with regard to your case. I have some questions with regard to your chronology:
Did Mr. Strachan ever get to present his evidence in court? If not, how does he feel about this? Have you had direct contact with him? Or is he part of the cover up?
What does the family doctor have to say? Did he ever get to present any evidence? Wouldn’t he be able to provide positive ID and link that to the medical record?
Where did the ‘Metcalfe’ name appear from – exactly? Is there another child/ case that has somehow got mixed up – or is it just invented?
You say in your Chronology:
All this information is covered-up in the Hospital File in the name of (RJB)
my Grandsons birth certified name, the doctors medical file, Local Child Clinic
Non of this evidence or his Cerbral Atrophy was ever to be discussed with anyone otherwise R would be taken and we his family would never see him again
Who told you this? Do you have it in writing?
Do you have the bailli reference to the case that Paul Focke QC defended?
He went on to become a judge and is now retired… How does he feel about what went down? He may have some infuence somewhere important.
Individual social workers or hospital professionals registered with hcpc can be investigated by them for malpractice. All members have a duty to follow a code of ethics. So it is worth pursuing things there.
I have seen you FOI requests to the Dept. of Health in April 2014 – and their rather inadequate responses. I would discuss the best way forward here, with the ICO. There are exemptions to your receiving personal information – as were quoted to you – but these can be considered and overruled by the ICO. If as you claim, names were altered and logged inaccurately, etc. then these are breaches of the DPA, which the ICO are supposed to police. They are toothless and pettifogging… but if you persist and manage to drill your with through to the upper levels of management, you can get a more sympathetic ear as they are interested in any cases of flagrant data injustice which might end up in them getting stronger powers in data protection from the government. You can sometimes get access to Data Subject Access Request information that is exempted, if the data may be required for future legal proceedings.
This below ( copied from Wikipedia) re-iterates what Sarah says above about Section 33:
A person who gains a residence order for a child will hold parental responsibility for the time the order is in place. Despite this, the Act forbids anyone to change the child’s surname or remove them from the United Kingdom without permission from all those with parental responsibility or with express permission from the court. Under section 63(3) of the [1980 c. 43.] Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980 the court has powers to punish those who do not abide by the ruling set out in the residence order.
The child’s surname can only be changed with the express permission of the court. Was that given?
I can’t help thinking that this is an appalling case of data confusion. Contact the ICO on 0303 123 1113 and open a case with them. Press them to investigate it. Copy everything to your MP, and to the I.T. Governance of both the L.A. and the NHS trust, and all senior administrators at the hospital ( who will not want to appear uncompliant in the eyes of the ICO as the ICO is able to hand out hefty fines to corporate bodies.) Force them to acknowledge your issue.
The responses from the Dept. of Health are inadequate. To say the least.
I repeat Sarah’s advice to me. Do your best to be clear and concise in your dealings with these people. And add some my own, learned by my own mistakes.
Remember they are dealing with this stuff all day, every day… and have limited patience for your emotion. Even though of course your outrage is entirely justified, it may just become an extra burden for them – and thus hamper your progress.
This may be important to the ICO:
The request for my Grandsons medical File was made prior to Local
Authority Court proceedings due to False Accussations of injuries
Obviously the whole name change farrago should be brought to their attention, with all the documentation you can provide.
Best of luck. Hope this helps.
I think this is very good advice from C.
Sorry Carol, I am now bewildered. Did these doctors who unanimously agreed see your grandchild?
Or another child?
Where and when does the Metcalfe originate from?
…and what was the huge mistake you were saved from by having your application to appeal rejected?
This judgment happened long ago. Has anything else relating to the outcome of the case occurred in the interim?
Carol, have I copied and pasted from the correct judgment?
‘The parents seek leave to appeal and also an extension of time, and in presenting their applications this morning all members of the family have spoken. The principal point on which they seek to persuade this court is that there has been a substantial miscarriage of justice because, they assert, the evidence of Dr. Cling Chong was not before the trial judge and, had it been before the trial judge, it would have led to a different conclusion.
That submission is quite simply unsustainable. In relation to Dr. Cling Chong, I have already recorded that, although not actually present at the meeting of experts, he was kept informed of its developments and concurred in its conclusions. Furthermore, in the judgment at page 16, the judge specifically recorded:
“[Dr. Chong] was not called before me because on the 24th January, 1997, all the doctors involved in this case met and unanimously agreed that the injuries seen in R were caused non-accidentally. He was not called and no criticism is made by anybody of that decision.”
Finally, I would only wish to emphasize the quality of the legal team that represented the parents before Bennett J. They had as their counsel both Mr. Ford and Mr. Focke QC. The judge specifically said at page 35 of his judgment:
“I wish to record my indebtedness to the skilled cross-examination of Mr. Focke and his very skilful presentation of this case on behalf of the parents.”
It is easy to understand how traumatic for the parents and, indeed, for the grandparents has been this outcome. But it is a case in which there was a wealth of expertise and complete unanimity amongst the experts, including the expert specifically instructed on the parent’s behalf. The judgment of Bennett J is particularly full and careful, as an issue of such importance demanded. But, in my judgment, it would be quite impossible to conclude that anything that has been said or written in support of these applications discloses the least error in the trial proceedings or the least prospect of success on an appellate review. For my part, I would refuse these applications.’
So I am not clear what is the issue about the wrong child. Are you saying the legal team missed this pretty crucial point?
Why didn’t QC Fockes follow through? If all you say is correct – and I have no reason to doubt it – then it should have been a relatively simple matter to correct at the time.
Have there been other appeals, efforts at correction prior to April 2014?
If not, why has the case become a concern again now? Has something happened?
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San Lasaro’s reputation has been destroyed.
..And then there was one.
Don’t know about Mr. Kling Chong…
Sorry Carol I have only just notice that you named a child so out of possibly abundance of caution I have removed that name.
I am also a bit confused – you asked me to remove all your comments, which I did but now you have posted again? the problem is now that a lot of the comments made by myself and C will make very little sense as your comments to which we were responding have been deleted.
I assume you are ok for this one to stay?
Thanks for clarifying – it’s fine to comment as and how you wish! If there is a problem with comments, they can be moderated at this end. I am glad you have found the site helpful.
I was reading this judgment
Prior to the Social Service involvement that concluded in this judgement
There was a Cleveland Police investigation which ended in Unconditional Release a detective stating that is the end of police involvement No Injuries to answer to, BUT we do not know what Social Services are going to do, Well this judgement and injuries stated is the result
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Are you saying that the evidence below was registered for the wrong child?
…Or are you saying that this evidence is in the correct name – but the adoption order was then made out in a different name?
The essential record is as follows:
“R had two skull fractures situated on the left and right side of the skull. One is fresh and compatible with the injury taking place on the day of admission, the other is older and cannot be dated. The older haemorrhage . . . had been present for at least seven days and could be older. The fresh haemorrhage associated with the left parietal fracture could have occurred on the 4th September or within a few days prior thereto. The old subdural haemorrhages were likely to be the outcome of a vigorous shaking incident…..
The old fracture . . . is the outcome of an impact injury. That is to say the head striking or being struck by an object. The new fracture is the outcome of an impact injury and is compatible with a fall, as described by the parents, relating to the 4th September.”
The opinion expressed by this gathering is recorded by the judge as follows:
“R has suffered two impact injuries to his skull and one episode of severe shaking/whiplash injury to the head. A further episode of shaking injury immediately before his admission to hospital is also most likely on the evidence. There are no predisposing factors in R’s development or behaviour (video tape viewed) and there is no pre-existing brain abnormality which increased vulnerability. A number of scenarios have been presented and considered and none of these are tenable as explanations for his multiple injuries.
We, the undersigned, are fully agreed on a strong balance of probability that R had suffered shaking head trauma and impact head trauma and that much of this trauma has been non-accidental.”
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I have done a little internet research into the background surrounding your case – and discovered this:
Dr. San de Lazaro was severly reproached by Mr. Justice Eady in the 2002 libel case brought by Dawn Reed and Christopher Lillie after the Shieldfield nursery scandal – but she was remarkably not found guilty of professional misconduct by the GMC, and continues to practice .
‘ ‘where physical findings were negative or equivocal, Dr San Lazaro was prepared to make up the deficiencies by throwing objectivity and scientific rigour to the winds in a highly emotional misrepresentation of the facts’, the GMC appears to have reached a different conclusion. They have failed in the first place to recognise that the problem at the heart of the Lazaro case is one of multiple misdiagnosis. They have failed in the second place to recognise that Dr Lazaro’s honesty and scrupulousness – or lack of it – appears to have played crucial role in her misdiagnoses.’ –
…one of our earliest sources, who was familiar with Dr Lazaro’s working methods, described her as ‘a legend in her own imagination’ with ‘a penchant for playing God’. – Richard Webster 2005
from November 2012 ‘…the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority is reviewing cases where she has been involved and would be “extremely reluctant” to accept her opinions in the future. Dr Lazaro is a frequent diagnostic witness and prosecution expert in sexual abuse cases in the north-east.’
Have you ever had any contact with Vera Baird about this. She is now Police Commissioner in Nothumbria and Teeside, is a QC, and was previously very critical of Dr. San Lazaro? She may be a good resource. This is her contact: 0191 221 9800 Or Email: email@example.com
Now I understand where the Metcalfe originated… and perhaps begin to understand the nature of the error/cover up, if there was one. Where Social Services are concerned ineptness is always more likely than malicious intent. At least at the outset.
However if what Mr Constable said in court is the case, I don’t understand why the other medical records would not be admitted, as it is clear that they are for the same child. Unless there is some cover-up originating in the hospital, in which case, your case there must be strengthened by the evidence already piled up against Dr. San Lazaro… and the outrage that she is still practicing.
…Perhaps file complaints against the other doctors who consorted with her..?
“The judge said she was “unbalanced, obsessive, and lacking in judgment.”” – BMJ – Aug 3 2002
That seems generous.
Also on Page 30 of the judgment ( see Bailli):
“All the doctors to which I have referred, save for Dr. Chong who was in London and could not be present, met under the auspices of the Guardian Ad Litem on the 24th January, 1997.”
…and that the Guardian ad Litem had picked Dr. San Lazaro.
“the guardian ad litem obtained leave to consult Dr. San Lozaro in Newcastle.”
Were the findings of Dr. Livingstone in Leeds substantially different? I note he was not among the colloquy of doctors meeting under the auspices… Were they presented to the court?
Are you saying that your son and his partner admitted to the non-accidental injury charge as a means of possibly regaining access to their son?
This mess all occurred in 1997. I am still unclear whether you have been actively pursuing it ever since, or gave up from understandable exhaustion. If so, what happened this April to re-activate your concerns?
Any data controller has an obligation for their records to be accurate. Challenge the medical records at the hospital.
Who were the three doctors called before Mr. Justice Bennett?
EDIT – This comment has been deleted as will every comment I receive from this email address from now on.
In the medical evidence for R. weren’t there photographs, or video?
EDIT – This comment has been deleted as will every comment I receive from this email address from now on.
Perhaps it would be worth contacting Vera Baird again – if you are able to present a concise, coherent set of reasons why the judgment – based on Dr. San Lazaro’s overseeing of submissions via the Guardian ad Litem – is flawed. She might be persuaded to look into it further.
Unfortunately the GM, who one might expect to police medical ethics vigorously, seem reluctant to censure Dr. San Lazaro.
What of Dr. Livingstone? And the other doctors? Are they still practicing locally? What about the GP – who was aware of the jerking head incidents prior to any allegation of non-accidental injury?
Have you got a solicitor or barrister on board, or do you plan to be litigants in person?
Misfeasance or Malfeasance covers it. But both are civil torts.
For info. of JR, See here: http://www.adminlaw.org.uk/docs/JR%202012%20by%20Richards%20QC.pdf
There is a good Overview of Judicial Review among the articles at http://www.39essex.com/
But – as has been said here before, it is most unlikely that you will be able to file for JR, unless you can find a decision to challenge that is less than 3 months old.
Best of luck with your proceedings.
I hope it goes well for you.
…one last thought: the name issue seems to come down to the lack of a hyphen. If the two names (B. and M.) are intended to indicate the names of the parents respectively, as the LA claimed, then there should be a hyphen between them, indicating that both are surnames. Otherwise B. may be taken as a middle name, as seems to have occurred in your situation.
I think making a complaint about Dr San Lazaro via the GMC may bear fruit – after all, she has already been reported at least once to them. Its free, and any censure of her would only help your case.
I was speaking to the ICO on an unrelated matter, and asked some general questions about your situation with regard to personal medical data. They confirmed that even though they are medical records, they fall under their remit as being personal data, and said that you ‘would be well advised to speak to them’.
Hope this helps.
This is so long ago now… but surely the A& E had copies of any letters, linked to time and doctor who attended, etc.
I am sorry I can be of no real help… Judicial review seems unlikely at this distance. I don’t know enough about human rights law to be able to give you a good steer – but surely there is somebody who can. Have you tried speaking to anyone at Coram – or Family Rights Group? They might be able to offer some assistance. Did you get any joy with the ICO, or GMC?
ICO for data accuracy.
…Have you discussed this with a lawyer? JR is usually only applicable within very narrow timeframes..
This is the ICO’s realm. They should be able to help. Have you tried?
If they have acted unlawfully… and you write to them about it and get a response which doesn’t satisfy you, then, it can be possible to use that response as the basis of your JR challenge. You would need to get legal advice from someone with a good grounding in public law, for the best advice on this. Preferably a barrister with a strong understanding of medical professional negligence and human rights…
You can also supplement that with a DSAR – Data Subject Access request – for you family data. Be as specific as possible about what you require.
Here is a template set up for the hospital. Make alterations to send another to the local authority. ( I am unsure whether the £10 fee for data processing will be required. Some organisations require it, some don’t):
[ADDRESS LINE 1]
[ADDRESS LINE 2]
Data Subject Access Request – Data Protection Act 1998
I am writing to make a data subject access request pursuant to s.7 Data Protection Act 1998.
[My grandchild [NAME] attended [Hospital] between [DATE] and [DATE]. Consequently, [Hospital], as a data controller, [holds and processes OR held and processed] personal data of which my family and my grandchild are the subject.]
SCOPE OF MY REQUEST
[This is a general request that relates to any of [my] personal data processed by or on behalf of [Hospital]. To help you comply with the request, you should know that it is likely that personal data is held relating to the following matters:
The decision to [SUBJECT MATTER].
Conversations between [NAME] and [NAME].
Medical Reports about [SUBJECT MATTER].
Where such personal data cannot be supplied without disclosing information relating to another individual who can be identified from that information, you should take reasonable steps to secure the consent of such other individual or redact the personal data as appropriate.
LOCATING THE PERSONAL DATA
[Some of the data processed may be held in the form of sent and received e-mails, records of telephone calls and other conversations, and word-processed documents. Presumably these can be identified through the use of search tools or from a manual perusal of your records.]
[In relation to e-mails, you may limit the search to e-mails between [NAMES] during the period [DATES]. However, in relation to [SUBJECT MATTER] please ask [NAMES] whether either is aware of others who are likely to have exchanged e-mails containing personal data about me. If so, please search the e-mails of anyone that either of them identifies as well as those individuals mentioned above.]
[VARIANT EXPRESSIONS OF OUR FAMILY NAME
My Grandchild’s certified birth name is spelled [NAME]. However, I have found people using a number of variant spellings including [VARIATIONS]. This may be helpful, particularly when searching records.]
INFORMATION TO SUPPLY
Once you have identified personal data within the scope of this request, please provide:
A copy of the information constituting the personal data;
A description of the data;
An explanation of the purposes for which the data is processed;
An identification of the sources of the data;
Details of all parties to whom the data has been disclosed or may be disclosed.
FEE AND AUTHORISATION
I enclose a cheque for £10 in respect of the maximum prescribed fee together with a copy of my driving licence and passport to confirm my identity.
I look forward to hearing from you in relation to the above within the statutory time limit of 40 days.
I wholeheartedly agree, unfortunately.
nothing in social services will change and innocent people can and will be treated appauling just corupt social workers stick together telling awful lies . we are vetted family checked unannounced visits training, give 13 years of our life into this then concerns raised we didnt see any evidence or who by . using removing babies to get at carers. i believed in no smoke without fire. icould never believe this could happen ..it should go criminal route at least there would have to be evidence. i wrote childrens ministers mp they didnt want to know . they could have followed it to see how carers are treated . they didnt ask for update or outcome. so that was who can change things. nothing getting better
Sorry, its not possible to comment helpfully on the basis of that information. You can apply to JR a refusal by a CJ to grant you permission to appeal but the circumstances have to be ‘exceptional’. I don’t know what your grounds of appeal were or why you were refused so I can’t comment.
I don’t think anyone has been offended by your comments Carol – or at least no one has said anything to me!
But I can’t help thinking that the advice given to you earlier by C showed a path that might be more helpful to you, i.e. trying to clear up the issues around the misuse of data and the misrecording of your grandchild’s name. The courts are going to be stuck dealing with the issues that are before them; so if you need to challenge a primary fact (that the wrong child’s details were presented to court) the data protection route might be the better one.
But obviously I don’t know the full circumstances of your case and haven’t seen any papers so any comments I make are going to be of limited help to you.
It is not my experience that children of unmarried parents are treated differently. But it is odd that a name was used if that was not the name used by either of his parents. In my experience, courts are very quick to deal with errors in the way a name is recorded. Did his parents point this out at the time?
Have you presented this anomaly re: names to any of the medical authorities that oversee national health, e.g. British Medical Council, Professional Standards Authority, the hcpc – if you have the name of the medic(s) involved? Have I asked this question before? Anyway, its worth the price of the phone calls. Otherwise it is free.
I would have thought the the court could request the RJB records under discovery, if there was any chance that they related to your grandson… but I’m not legally trained so can’t be sure of this. It just seems like the common sense way to clear things up.
Oh Carol! Well done for being so resolute in the face of such obstacles.
I wish you every success.
This is an excellent example of people trying to improve things.
However, it is doomed to failure –
1. There are huge numbers of children and adults who’s lives have been ruined over many years by the tyrannical organisation that has evolved into social services. These people’s lives have been criminally ruined, much in the same way people who were enslaved. This site offers no repatriation or reparation for these people to become ‘normal’ human beings again. They are the damned.
2. This tyrannical organisation has an endemic abusive mindset. It cannot be repaired; only total disbanding will stop the infection. A new organisation with all new people. In fact, the NHS should be allocated the budget and allowed to recreate the ethos of the organisation around good mental health practices.
3. The abusers can hide here, and use it to ambush the unwary.
4. It is abusive to insist that only hard evidenced proof is to be believed from people who are criminally abused by social workers, local authority, cafcass and family court.
5. The system requires moral decency to work, and that is greatly absent in this modern social services.
This is not pessimism, but reality.
No one can hide on this site and ‘ambush’ anyone. I ask for evidence whenever possible because I am simply fed up of extravagant claims that ‘foster care is a multi billion dollar industry’ as just one example. Whenever I ask for even a scintilla of evidence, what do I get? Silence.
I am not asking people to provide me ‘hard evidence’ that they feel abused, distraught and afraid. The evidence of at is plain to see.
I am asking for a dialogue that moves beyond wearisome hyperbole and defeatism. There has to be a middle ground.
Today I accidentally stumbled upon something that might be considered relevant ‘evidence’ – not of a billion pound treasure pot, but a part of the ‘picture’. Certainly a motivation for schools to report to Social services if they anything – no matter how trivial comes their way: ‘The children weren’t wearing coats’, ‘ the mother was dressing her child in the car’, etc. Here is the ‘evidence’: https://www.gov.uk/pupil-premium-information-for-schools-and-alternative-provision-settings
I certainly agree that both hyperbole and defeatism are as exhausting as trying to get an honest response from a local authority – and I couldn’t recommend either.
Agreed. No one’s assertions get any more credible by exaggeration. It simply poisons debate. I have found my perceptions of the child protection system as an ‘industry’ definitely undergoing a shift in the past year but my shift may have come sooner and been more pronounced if so many proponents of that view were less hysterical in their endorsement of it.
I must admit when you first started this resource I would not after first glance use it , as what you said was so different from my own experience. However now I can see that you look at both sides, actually I have seen your viewpoint shifting.
I find it a valuable resource now , so my viewpoint has shifted as well.
thanks Sam, even if you are the only person to find it so, that makes it worthwhile.
I think it’s helped more than me. Even routing several people towards a solicitor must have been useful.
Actually what I should have said was hopefully they were routed towards the right solicitor! Still a little cynical . I am sure you understand
CPR is certainly a very helpful resource. You can see that just from looking at the number of times its info. pages are being referenced on Facebook.
Any self respecting local authority that understood the word ‘Care’ might consider including links to this resource in the documentation they give to parents at the outset. That would save a lot of time and effort.
Thanks C, I appreciate the comment.
Sorry Carol, I have redacted the names out of possibly over abundance of caution.
Thanks for the update, I hope you get the outcome you want.
I have just found this site and after having had a horrific 6 months of SS involvement which was forced upon us due to an enormous amount of errors, I am looking for advice as to how or even if our case can be deleted from our children’s records? Our case was withdrawn from court as medical evidence supported the fact that our baby has a blood disorder causing her to bruise easily. I should mention that it was me that raised the concerns 6 months ago because I was worried that something was wrong with our baby and I sought advice from a health professional who made a referral to social care. 6 months on and it’s finally come to an end and apart from the massive upset, stress, mistrust, sleepless nights etc I am worried about the impact that the information held on record could have on our children in future years. Any suggestions will be welcomed
Sorry to hear about your ordeal – but glad that it had a positive outcome, so many similar stories don’t.
With regard to your records, it is very difficult to get records removed, it is even difficult to ensure that they are correct. There is an obligation under the DPA that all records should be relevant, up-to-date, proportionate and accurate – but unfortunately the organisation responsible for policing the DPA, the ICO, is pretty well toothless. LA’s don’t pay them much heed.
If you have the money, then you can take the local authority to court for breaching the DPA – and that should get any misrepresentations in the files corrected – but it probably won’t get them removed. The argument is that they have to maintain a record of your children’s information,’ in case your children wish to complain when they are adults’.
Thanks for updating, Carol. My heart goes out to you and your family for the neddless suffering that you have been put through. I hope justice will eventually be served.
As I understand, Judicial Review is for decisions made in public law, so any local authority decision can be challenged – not the decisions of the family law court. Sometimes you can create a document which you can then judicially review, by writing to the Local Authority about an issue, and requiring a response – then JR’ing either the response or the refusal to respond. This is a tricky area, and you would need to get proper legal advice..
I’m not a lawyer – but isn’t that grounds for appeal?
As I say, I am not legally trained – but it is depressing indeed to believe that there is no legal avenue open to you, because judging by what you say, this is a case of prolonged fraud.
Family courts are the social services secret courts all the judges there are ex social workers and rogue judges in the back pockets of the LA they are all money grabbers and dont care if they rip familys appart they just care about there own pockets they get£1.2 million pa for taking kids in to care and adopting them out to the next buyer there just family wrecing scum there trying it with me but il give you some advice if it goes to civil court /family court say bye bye to your kids there the courts that are currupt its better if it goes to criminal court as you got a fair chance to fight and judges play fair plus get a solicitor/lawyer out of the area e.g if your in leeds go to one in wakefeild or bradford coz most of them are in with the LA and wont fight you corner fair i no this because its happening to me
I am sorry you feel this way. I don’t accept that this is what is happening, and I have tried to demonstrate why in the Forced Adoption Post.
what is happening to you ?
Judges often ridicule hapless parents in court by asking them “Do you really think the social worker,the guardian,the expert,and the judge are all in a conspiracy to take your child?”
Well for once I agree with Sarah ;there is no conspiracy because there is no need for one!
What then is happening? Well “birds of a Feather flock together” or put another way “those who make a good living (or in some cases a huge profit) out of the system naturally protect that system.
When our wonderful MPs fiddled their expenses nobody suggested that over 600 of them got together to work out how best to cheat the system ! No conspiracy there either.What was it then? It was each for him/her self .Individual “snouts in the trough” and so it is in our family court system for social workers,judges,guardians,experts, camp followers etc and to hell with the consequences for parents and their unfortunate children caught in the net.
Carol will you please STOP posting comments and asking me to delete them? Please, just stop posting!
It will be a lot easier if you JUST STOP POSTING
How do you know which is a good solicitor to use?? Sounds cynical I know but I don’t think mine was even though they say they are for families etc
Hi there, our family are stuck in a rather delicate position at the moment. I’m going to bore you with a little back story as otherwise my questions will not make sense and any advice/websites might not be the correct ones…I apologise in advance for the long post!
My family is ‘known to social services’ . The first incident happened when I was a very young married mum and my military husband got fed up with me not ‘obeying’ his every order. We were living overseas on a military base, so came under the military version of social services. They listened to his false allegations (that I was suisidal and also trying to kill him) and rightly came to investigate. I was naive. I was also only 17 and so immature. To add to this my husband had, in hindsight, been emotionally abusing me, and it would possibly be classed as grooming – persuading me he was the only person that cared and for me to cut ties with all family and friends as soon as we married. I was so very alone, he wouldn’t give me permission to make friends with the other wives, he told me only he could put up with my stupidity and then when he hit me or forced himself on me, I did feel to blame. When the social worker turned up, it had been a bad few months with escalating violence, I had tried to make a stand and felt I was failing. I was suffering from depression too. We had a toddler daughter and I was pregnant, I spent my days trying to make my daughter happy – playing games and spending all my time with her, despite a sickly pregnancy. The SW said she was from SSAFA, I had no idea what that was and she didn’t explain. She asked how I was doing and I thought she might help me and my daughter escape back to England, so I told her everything. The first and last time I did that during that marriage. The SW looked round the house and took my daughter and I to the military surgery, where my daughter was examined to confirm my story that my husband had been injuring her too. We were then returned home. Unknown to me, a child case conference was held and my husband was ordered to attend, I was not even told it had happened. My husband came home and beat me for daring to tell the social worker what he was up to. He told me it had been a social worker that had come round and that Inhad caused him no end of problems. When the social worker returned a week or so later, I was covered in cuts and bruises. I cried and begged for her to call my parents to ask them to come and get me. She refused. She looked round the house again and told me I was to stop spending so much time with my daughter, to get her into kindergarten so I had time to do housework. She looked me straight in the eye and said ‘other beaten wives manage to keep their house tidy’. It wasn’t until many years later that I found out that my daughter and unborn son had been put on the at risk register…the reason given was neglect due to untidy and dirty house. I am ashamed to say the house was indeed untidy and it often had nappies in a bag tied to the back door as my husband used to lock us in. Sometimes the social worker would get the key from him, come for a visit and then lock us back in…on my records it states that I endangered my children by not having a way to exit the house if there was a fire! I’d like to emphasis it said I was the one endangering them! I was the one that neglected by not being a good housewife. When my son was born, I was in hospital For 10 weeks due to complications, which resulted in a still birth for one twin but a healthy second son. When I came home l, having only seen my daughter once (the day before I came home) in that time, I noticed that my daughter was different, she held her mouth differently, she had gone back into nappies and couldn’t speak. I asked the health visitor for advice and help but was told it was just because I had another baby now. 5 years later my daughter was diagnosed with brain damage, this October, over 24 years after that stay in hospital, I was informed by a solicitor, in a throw away comment, that the case conferences from back then reported my daughter had been injured by my husband during my stay in hospital and she had sustained a brain injury and was ‘expected to be retarded’. My husband had his pay suspended for a month as a punishment. Nothing else happened. I was not told and my daughter was left in his care.
Eventually my husband left me (yes I was that sort of battered wife – too stupid to leave), we had 4 children by then and he had got much better at emotional abuse and making sure the bruises and cuts were on parts of my body that remained hidden. He tried to come back a few months later and for once I stood my ground and refused…he reported me to social services. And so the pattern of abuse changed. He would turn up and demand sex and if I refused he would report me. I refused a lot. The claims were lies and outlandish in some cases…yet still they were investigated. He once reported me (to prove his point that everyone believed him and didn’t believe me) saying I had been abducted by aliens and left my children home alone whilst I was off being a prostitute to the aliens! A social worker turned up and asked me lots of daft questions about if I had been abducted, had I been sleeping around, was I leaving the children alone whilst I was off out with these aliens. I giggled through that one…it is noted in my very large file that I didn’t take the allegations seriously, apparently that was a negative point against me! I’m sure she didn’t think I was abducted by aliens, I’m not sure what she was checking on…maybe she thought I was mad or maybe she thought I had made up a lame excuse to cover going out…but all the claims were fabricated and I did deny them, yet still something negative was noted about me and not about my ex.
Years later I remarried a good, gentle and loving man….and my ex just started randomly reported me to social services. The reports were usually that the house was dirty – covered in cat faeces. He would also pepper the false report with little bits of truth gleaned from the children. He made my life hell, but I’m guessing that was the intention. Often the social worker would turn up with the complaint, which she couldn’t tell me where it had come from…but she’d waft it around and it would be army headed paper!
We moved to a new house (the last one had been falling to bits but the HA had refused to repair it as they intended to tear it down) and this coincided with me putting in a formal complaint against a really badly matched social worker – she admitted I was the same religion as her mum and she hated everyone that belonged to our religion! It was such a bad match! But I provided evidence, having kept a diary and even had the police back me up as she threatened me in front of two officers and also inside the social services building in front of their receptionist. We were on the register again after one of my ex’s many false reports, but after the complaint we got a great social worker and that coinciding with the move to a decent house meant that we quickly were unregistered. After that we still got complaints from my ex and we were still investigated and put repeatedly on to the register…but as soon as we switched to a regular social worker we would get back off the register fairly quickly as it was all about trying to see if I would slip into my old ways of being a lousy house wife.
Then things went quiet, my ex had got bored and rarely saw the children, and no reports went in. I forgot what it was like to always worry what my ex might think of how I was living….which is probably why I wasn’t expecting anything when I decided to home ed my son! First the school messed up, trying to illegally refuse to allow me to deregister him (it’s not their choice), they then reported me to
social services…who didn’t have any clue about home ed and were not willing to listen to me! So we were registered again! I tried to prove they couldn’t call it abuse (neglect and emotional for removing the child and making him different to other children!), bringing in a solicitor, local councillor, member of the LEA and someone from the home ed team….so they switched at the next meeting to it being neglect because I wasn’t giving a full curriculum to match the school (again that’s not what I was meant to do, again they had no idea)…then it was emotional anise because I ‘didn’t wear make up or wear a watch’ so my children might be ridiculed! Then we had a massive spanner in the works when we discovered that the reason my son had been playing up (we had presumed it was just clashing with teachers and him struggling in a large class, which is why we had removed him from the school)…he had been abused by the parent of a school friend. So then social services kept us on their books through the trial. I have to say I fully understand that and there is no one that can blame me more, for not realising he was being groomed or abused, than I do. The trial took 8 months. There was actually two trials, as he was threatened at knife point by a friend of the abuser and told to drop the case. He did not. He stood up to both of those people, and I mean stood up…the police persuaded him that video evidence is too easily ignored so he actually stood in the court room, without the curtain and gave evidence. The effect on our family was unbelievable…my teenage son was like a toddler again – bed wetting, scared to go out without us with him, nightmares that woke the whole house with his screams…and we didn’t receive any help from social services, just the extra pressure of unannounced visits to see if I had reverted to my old bad housekeeping under the pressure. I didn’t….but two weeks after the trial was finished, I lost another son to stillbirth. We were due to be downgraded to child in need a week after the stillbirth, but the meeting was cancelled (by social services) due to our loss. It was held a month later (I was still not in a very good state!) and they informed us we would be kept as child at risk to see how we coped with the stillbirth! At this point we had just had another change in social worker and the woman was fantastic. She kept saying that she couldn’t see why we were ever registered and as we were the only one of 27 families effected by the paedophile, to actually be watched by social services, she didn’t think that any of the reasons were viable. She recommended we always bring a solicitor with us to meetings to stop ‘the chair getting funny ideas’!!! My ex tried playing up again, the social worker happily turned up and asked me to help her provide proof that he was lying, she didn’t hide it was him, she even read the complaint out – it contained an obvious contradiction, complaining that I hadn’t let him see the last of our children still at home, for four years, as then went on to say there had been cat and dog faeces on the floor in my house every time he came to pick up our son, which was fortnightly. He hadn’t actually bothered with our son for so long, he didn’t know we didn’t have the dogs or cat anymore and didn’t even know about the trials (our son begging for us not to tell him)…one of the dates he gave in the claim about a dirty house was actually a day we were in court! The social worker told me to be firmer next time, and make sure that any investigating social worker knew that these were vendictive reports and they were enabling him to continue abusing me! We were never actually at a meeting where we were taken off the register after that! We heard nothing for a year and then a local policeman made gentle enquiries about us being on the list of troubled families at a multi-agency meeting…and the next month he said our name was removed without explaination!
A year after that we took in my son’s 16 year old girlfriend. She was pregnant and on telling her mum was kicked out – the police dropped her off and asked us to keep her away from her mum and social services would get in touch (it had been a violent kicking out!)…..she stayed here for over a year! We went to social services meetings, where we were portrayed as amazing parents who were doing a far better job with the girl than her mother! It was a surreal time!
So that takes me to Christmas 2014….my eldest daughter announces that she is pregnant. I had already begged adult services to look after her, but they had said she could live independently and didn’t need help. Over a 4 year period she was raped twice, left the door of the block of flats on latch and the whole block was burgled, walked away from her flat making herself intentionally homeless and losing all her furniture and belongings because a ‘friend’ said she should move in with her, fell in with a bad crowd that actually didn’t just contain paedophiles, but the actual paedophile that had abused her brother…and then she announces the pregnancy. I knew they wouldn’t let her keep the baby. Child services had listed her as a danger to my younger children when she lived at home! But my daughter claimed she had been found competent by a social worker and she was keeping the baby. She had the baby May….and has never been allowed back home. First she stayed in hospital, now a mother and baby foster placement, they are trying to get her a place in a special needs mother and baby unit. In October I got a text from my daughter asking me to get to court that day. It was sitting in court and listening to the three barristers that made me realise that she is never going home with my little grandchild. On that day I was shocked and angry. I’m not sure who at…myself and the daft adult services social worker, that had closed her case, mainly I think! The solicitor asked why I had refused to take the baby…news to me! Turns out my daughter had lied and said all family members had refused – she thought that way they would let her keep her baby. She honestly doesn’t understand…she told me this week that she’s opened a bank account in her baby’s name so now they definitely can’t take the baby away! It is heartbreaking on two levels – I can see my daughter headed for the soul crushing experience of having her baby taken away, and she doesn’t even realise it’s going to happen….and secondly, as a grandmother, I know social services are right. She can’t look after herself let alone protect a baby. Her friends with little exception are paedophiles and people who have had their children removed and adopted. Social services say she can’t be trusted to protect her baby from her friends…and I know they are right. They say she wouldn’t even think twice about going out and leaving baby behind if her friend asked her to….and I know they are right. They say her that once she loses her temper, she either drops everything and runs away or else lashes out violently smashing glass, hiring everything and everyone around her using anything she can get her hands on….I know this is so true as this is one of the reasons child services feared for my children near her. This week the judge asked for a final psychiatric report (the fourth in 4 months). The last three said she was mentally 8,7 and 6….I’m shocked, I was told before she left home that she was mentally 10-12. Her environment has not been good for her.
So I’ve asked to be considered for looking after my grandchild. I hope social services will approve us, but fear my ‘known to social services’ label is too big…even though we had such a positive experience with my son’s girlfriend (and eventually their baby).
So that’s all the huge background. Now to my questions!! No one will answer any and I can’t find a British site online to answer them!
Can I appeal if the social workers deny me initially? is not a question of ‘appealing’. You only appeal against an order of the court. If the LA refuses to assess you, you must apply to the court for an independent assessment. The court will order that if they consider it ‘necessary’. It is pretty inevitable that the LA will have to carry out a short initial viability assessment of you. If they refuse to go further, ask for an independent social worker.
If so, how do I do that? Go to the court office and ask for the relevant forms to make an application to apply to be a party to the proceedings and to be assessed as carer for your grandchild.
If I do look after my grandchild, will I be fostering? Adopting? Is there another name for it?
Am I signing up for 18 years of having a social worker? (It won’t stop me from trying to do it…but I’d like to know in advance!) Often, children are placed with grandparents under a Special Guardian Order which is a half way house between adoption and a child arrangements order (which used to be called a residence order). I think it very unlikely they would treat you as a foster parent.
Will my daughter still have parental responsibility? Yes, but if you get a SGO you have ‘super PR’ and are in control.
What will that mean for things like permission for injections, operations, schooling, trips away etc? You get to decide. It would be good to discuss/consult with your daughter but you would have final say with SGO.
Will Social services have to be approached for permission for everything? Not if its an SGO. They have no involvement. If it is care or supervision order, they remain involved.
If so, is it just big stuff or day to day things too? If anyone else remains involved, they shouldn’t try to micro manage your day to day life.
Social services say we will need ‘intensive’ interviews including our children…should I be preparing the children (I don’t mean coaching I mean just warning them that a social worker will be talking to them) I don’t see anything wrong with saying that ‘the SW is coming to talk to us about maybe looking after this child.’ They will need to get a sense of how everyone feels about it.
Will the judge be likely to arrange contact between my daughter and grandchild? Will it be at my house? Usually if SGO is made contact is set at about 6 times a year, but it could be more. It will be up to you if you feel happy with it being at your house.
If my daughter is coming to my house for contact, will my children have to be registered again? Can’t see why
Will they have to be registered anyway because the baby is? Like an ‘all the children in the household are at risk’ blanket cover? No. The baby is at risk because of the mother.
If my daughter can visit, can I refuse her friends entry or will that be her right to bring others to contact? Yes. If you have an SGO, you get to make these decisions.
If there is no contact allowed, will I have to basically disown my daughter or will I be allowed to contact her by phone, email and letter? You can contact her but you can’t permit contact between her and baby.
Will the judge make the decision as soon as he decides if she can keep the baby or not, or do they make that decision and then have another court date for the arrangements to be finalised – like they do with sentencing. (Sorry, my entire court knowledge is based on two cases we were involved in and a few films that were mainly American!) The stages of care proceedings are first hearing; case management hearing, issues resolution hearing and final hearing. If the matter can’t be agreed at the IRH it goes to final hearing and evidence is heard. Then judge makes final decision.
If we are blessed to be given our grandchild to foster/look after….will it be temporary whilst they find adoptive parents? that depends if their plan is for adoption and if the judge agrees.
If so, will the social worker just come and take the baby? Yes
If it’s allowed to be long term, would we ever be able to adopt? Or will it always be foster?
If either my husband or I died (we aren’t that old but you never know) would social services come and take our grandchild? Its unlikely that the court would agree it is a good idea to adopt your grandchild as that would make you the child’s mother as a matter of law. This is why SGOs are preferred for grandparents. If there is no one else to care for the child if you die, then yes, the SW would have to act
If my ex gets vendictive again…will they take our grandchild whilst they investigate? I hope not. Can you get a non molestation order against him or get the police to warn him over harassment?
Am I nuts and just opening a massive can of worms and sprinkling it liberally over my family?
Will it make things worse for my daughter (mentally) to have a family member bringing up her child? She doesn’t understand adoption and thinks the baby will just come back one day. Its a difficult one. Only you can know. The child may well be very glad that you kept him/her with family. But the tensions with your daughter are real and could make life difficult for you all.
I know there’s a lot here and tons of questions. I can’t find anyone to ask that will give me a truthful answer. I’m not being anti social services…I do actually think they are right…but it doesn’t mean I like the situation. We are trying to focus on what is best for our grandchild, but we are also deeply concerned for the welfare of our daughter. The whole thing is such a mess…and adult social services are no where to be seen for me to hiss ‘I warned you this would go wrong’ at them!
I have added some responses in bold to your original comment.
Thank-you so much…it’s nice to finally get some answers!
I applied for my sons social records before making a complaint about social workers. He is disabled and has a cin plan. I have since requested the latest records and these overlap by about a month. The records go from ‘ mum provides stable loving environment and has open honest relationship with son ect. ‘ a month before complaining and ‘has injury confirmed by go but reluctant to do physio as the pain would prevent her from being able to move son” , then 3 months later (after he complaint’ all of a sudden it changes to ‘mums aggressive and challenging’ ‘ lack of communication and not listening to son’.
I get that these are opinions so although annoying I can’t just say that opinion is wrong.
What is worrying is that where the records overlap there have been entries on the daily logs changed and some extra have been inserted. Initially the blacked a lot of info out so I had to reapply for the info with mine and sons I’d, which was when I found out. Not only have his records been altered but the data people were simply blacking out info that there was no need to just because it showed them up. I’m not sure where to go from here, there is an ongoing investigation but being as the company who do the investigating are the same people as the data controller so I don’t expect q lot. Would I go to the information commissioner ?
That sounds appalling. I hope the Information Commissioner would take it seriously. There may be some useful info/links here https://childprotectionresource.online/category/data-protection-and-foi/
Thank you. It’s scary to think what they can do x
please see request on What do they know? re charges for photographs of final contact.
Forced Adoption Conference May 5th 2016 Lanark Glasgow.
Care Leavers Abused As a child Parent Of Forced adoption Child Contact Andy
We are looking for Speakers around the world and for you where you live to connect via skype add me freedomtalkradio1 email firstname.lastname@example.org
Lets bring forced adoptions globally from the glasgow conference.
Scotlands Child Stealing By The State Forced Adoption Conference 2016.
Mums Dads Grandparents Relatives @ Carers
I am arranging a nother successful conference in the fight to arrange awareness and publicize peoples stories where they
live all welcome volunteers needed.
Scotland to date havent had such a conference many days and weeks of hard work and volunteers will make the event a success.
My thanks go out to people who attended previous conferences.
Right what place or town will you attend ?
Would you like to be a guest speaker ? do you know of a guest speaker ? can you help make this conference a success ?
The aims of the conference is to which aims to prevent physical, emotional and sexual abuse and neglect of children
by promoting the physical, emotional, and social well-being of children. We aim to promote the rights of children
as citizens, through multi-disciplinary collaboration, education, campaigning and other appropriate activities’
The Other aim is to stop stories like this one and asking those involved in child protection to think before they remove children
1:-The fact is that parents who have committed no crime are losing their children to forced adoption!
2:-Experts who depend on court appearances for a living, nearly always agree with the local authority.They make predictions that parents just might abuse their children (including newborn babies) in the future ,so these parents lose their children to permanent fostercare or adoption,not for something they have done but for something they might (or might not) do!
3:-Over 1000 UK children /month are taken into care ,Fosterers are paid an average £400/week per child (birth mothers get around £20/week),and a foster agency founded by social workers getting around £1500/week per child was recently sold for £130million !A real money driven industry !!
4:-Parents whose children have been taken are gagged and threatened with prison if they protest publicly;At contact parents are gagged again and forbidden to get emotional,to speak any foreign language,or to discuss the case with their children otherwise contact will be stopped.
5:-More children are taken for emotional abuse than physical and sexual abuse added together.Despite “baby P” the number taken for physical abuse is steadily falling as a percentage of the total number of children taken.
6:-What are the solutions?
(a)Impose criminal rules of evidence in family courts so children cannot be taken unless parents are proved to have committed a crime affecting their children. Also parents would be free to obtain a second opinion from an expert of their own choosing.
(b)Abolish all gagging of parents leaving them free to protest openly if their children are taken, and also to say what they like to them at contact without censorship ! Two very simple changes, two very obvious solutions.,but will anyone impose them and derail the moneytrain? Don’t hold your breath
HEAR HEAR !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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It is really hard to fine someone who really cares…my husband. Was the hardest one. He is stubborn, he is rude, and because of that pride wanted to take him from me. He never listen to me again. At times I wonder, if he is truly the man, I could have wished to marry?…I started seeing marriage as mistake. I have really be suffering ever since I got married…at times I think of those days of my single age, before I meet my husband, when he started coming to me…seeking me for marriage, how he use to love me and make me jealous. I cried…but crying was just like me swimming into more and more pains and I don’t want to get out of it… I really thank Jai mata Sunlight.” Because, I contacted her in pains but I came back with solutions and testimonies…I say thanks you the great mother Sunlight. Who could have done this for me? What surprises me most, was that…she did not come to my home to advice my husband, I did not see her physically. I only read about her with her email on the internet, then I contacted. She ask me few questions about what is happening to me…and I explain the whole thing to her. She replied and ask me of few things, which I could not afford then I pay an affordable price for it…then she asked of his name that was all. That was how I got out of pains and sorrows. The next morning, my husband was the one who wake me up from sleep…and started begging me for forgiveness, how he has be treating me bad. I look at him…tears came out of my eye. Not because I finally have him, but because of the truthfulness of Jai mata Sunlight. How she brought my husband back safely for my happiness. I thank you so much great mother Sunlight…I say praise be unto you. My husband…now care for me like I am a little baby. I am pregnant with our third child. He drive me to work every morning, he picks me up when I am close. Even when I yell at him…he doesn’t pick offense. Now I love him every much. Pls readers help me thank the great mother sunlight…for the wonderful work she did for me. As you celebrate with me, you shall be celebrated. Also you can contact her…do you have any problems in your marriage?? Are you heartbroken?? It’s your love one cheating and lying to you??..contact Jai mata Sunlight… She has the solution to your problems. Contact her on her direct email… Sunlightmata@gmail.com. And become the next to celebrate. Thanks to you great queen mother Sunlight.
Sarah, Just a question of CPR etiquette . I noticed today a tweet at the top by Jerry Lonsdale who appears to be registered on twittwitter as JerryLonsdale4MP.
I know I comment on this resource as an ordinary parent only but it might add to my credibility and kudos were I to sign off as AngeloGranda4MP.
You are the CPR moderator! Do you have any legal objections to it and what about ethical ones,honour etc?
I don’t have any professional Child Protection qualifications but I quite like the sound of 4MP after my name but want to check with you first.
Jerry is standing to run as an MP Angelo, are you? I don’t think it would add to anyone’s credibility to pretend they are someone they are not and anyway, being a parent is quite credible enough!
You know, the problem is, that all those defending the child protection system are referring to “mistakes”. Call it what you will, conspiracy theory, or any other name, but the fact remains that there are a significant number of social workers actively lying and deliberately building false cases against innocent parents. In particular against parents of children with special needs, disabilities, unusual or difficult to diagnose conditions. Look at the case of little baby Effi just in the news with EDS. Do you know how many families have EDS? A lot. Do you know how many are undiagnosed? A lot. Hypermobility is the same genetics that leads to EDS and up to 20% of the population are hypermobile!! So just as one example, children who bruise easily, have developmental delays etc. due to their condition, when social services intervene without a shred of clinical or medical understanding, simply assume abuse when they are absolutely unqualified to know if there is a medical cause.
There are a significant number of vaccine injured babies whose parents are falsely accused of shaken baby abuse. There are autistic children who are misdiagnosed with attachment disorder due to falsely accused abuse or neglect. There are a significant number of stories in the media about judges reprimanding SWs for lying (shockingly however they are not charged with perjury). I know of decent people who are loving parents who have lost their children not through “mistakes”, but through lies of professionals including social workers. Nobody seems to remember here, that the severe emotional harm caused to the whole family by wrongful interventions (which lasts lifelong) and the trauma of taking a child wrongfully from it’s birth parents, does damage that can never be undone. So whilst all those people on here labelling people conspiracy theorists talk about inevitable collateral damage, remember those are untold lives destroyed and if it happened to your own family, you would not be so blase about it. It’s not about “mistakes”, because witch hunts take place and when parents fight back with evidence, their evidence is ignored. One mother I know of who lost her child, had the LA knowingly use police records related to someone else in her case files to obviously destroy her reputation (she had no police record herself). When she did an SAR they sent heavily redacted copies to cover-up what was going on. The judge was entirely aware of this fact and dismissed it as something that would not be resolved in the family court. Even though the family court were using that false evidence against her to remove her child – which they did. Here is some light reading – and in the meantime, I suggest you defenders of this corrupt system start investigating the truth, instead of sticking your heads in the sand denying what’s going on – or are you part of the corruption yourselves…and remember the following articles are just the tip of a very large iceberg:
“A council social worker is facing allegations of misconduct and dishonesty after she was accused of falsifying child protection documents.”
“That led to him [Martin Sands] “deliberately recording false information over Children In Need plans when meetings had not taken place.”
“Social services staff asked to make decisions about the future of five children were involved in an attempted ”cover-up”, a family court judge has said.
Judge Mark Horton said there had been a ”deliberate and calculated” alteration of a social worker’s report.”
For SWs to feel comfortable enough to do that, means that the social services culture encourages or allows it and that this is common knowledge. How many go unreported and are not caught, because parents don’t know their rights and don’t speak out, they are too busy being devastated. Judging by the families I have encountered and personal experience, there are many very bad people who go into social work and who think nothing of serious lies and law-breaking. It’s disgusting and if anyone reading this who works in child protection and is a good person, maybe you don’t see it because you are good. Start digging and you will find out the truth.
EJ, All this is very concerning. However I think the solicitors and barristers are much more culpable than you realise and the Social Workers themselves less so. I think it is the LA legal staff ( solicitors etc.) who change many of the Social Work reports not the workers themselves. If not the solicitors, it is the so-called SW team managers.
I know this because one Social Worker ( when faced-down) claimed she could not remember writing the falsehoods in her report and claimed it was dated and signed at a time when she was on holiday. Also I read a blog of a team-manager recently following a link on this resource and the blogger described how she regularly writes reports and assessments on children for her junior SW’s. She regards it has part of her duty even though she may not actually meet the children or parents.
Have any other parents happened to notice how SW’s appear to go missing at important junctures on so-called leave ,on courses etc. Never to be seen again. No-one sees their reports and someone unknown writes them. Has any barrister noticed how signatures are illegible squiggles or mere fascimiles of the alleged SW’s signature.
Sarah, if parents tell you an assessment or statement is untrue, don’t ignore them, check the statements closely and you never know what you might find. As EW says , the Social Work culture allows it and they get away with it too often.
If parents question the truthfulness of a social worker’s written report then this is what we, the lawyers do
a) get the author of the report in court to be questioned closely about their conclusions
b) test these conclusions against other reports and evidence available in the case for e.g. what is said by school, health visitor, neighbours, police etc, etc
c) ask for the SW handwritten notes from which written reports arrive.
d) check authenticity of any computer entries etc. There have been cases where these have been tampered with, but in my experience is is rare.
It is actually very difficult to maintain a complete false picture in the face of this investigation. I often find misinterpretations or sloppy recording. I have never yet found a deliberate lie – but some colleagues have.
I don’t like to use the word ‘lie’ but how do you know if it is deliberate or not?
If SW’s willingly flout correct procedure ,fail to investigate properly and are not impartial have said before then ,for me, they deliberately make false representations and pervert the course of justice. Wilfully!
However, as lawyers know full well already, it matters not one iota to justice if it is deliberate or not. If not deliberate ,it is incompetent and unreasonable. Professionals have to be competent ,honest and reasonable or a Judge should throw out their evidence. The real sin of these SW’s is that when faced with the truth, it makes no difference, they wash their hands of it, refuse to change their evidence and then blame the Judge when wrong decisions are made.
Lawyers, you will always be able to tell when the ‘secret’ assessments are not fair and impartial. Not one thing will be mentioned in support of the parent concerned. Next time ,take a look.
Also, don’t forget this. The assessments they show to Court are not necessarily all the information they pass on to other professional experts involved. They pass much false info to them and also talk to them on the telephone. Thus expert reports are affected unfairly.
Well, for reasons I won’t go into here, I do know that SWs and their managers are equally guilty Angelo and when it’s SWs, it’s not only about report writing but unethical practice when seeing children. Don’t forget not all SW reports are for court hearings. They can be for Child in Need reports, or S47’s that don’t go that far. So saying it’s barristers and solicitors doesn’t explain it, even if they do also do this. There is corruption all the way through the system.
I could probably give you more examples of parents lying and concealing evidence than SW, not that that makes anything right, it is never right for SW to behave in any way other than they should.
I doubt it, considering the amount of parents I have come across all saying the exact same thing, there is a distinct pattern to what goes on and in the case of families of children with medical conditions and disabilities, they are deliberately targeted for requesting resources or putting in complaints for failure to support.
Childrens services, an organization of self believe perfect people, that destroy innocent life’s, family life, children’s lives. [EDIT MOSTLY DELETED. If you want to comment with less inflammatory language I will post it. Otherwise I will not]
An example of what a crazy hypocritical world we find ourselves in.
It is quite clear to me from your twitter feed that Hewson is making false allegations against you. The craziness is that a so called website that is supposed to assist and advise victims of people like her that make false allegations is actually promoting Her!
Sweet HonkyTonk Sarah
you will find this useful against the one with a major leak
Hi Sarah, i like checking on your blogs once in awhile, just found the replies above, very interesting. Just visited the cats blog and i find the only support i have received from anyone since my lovely Robert was killed by the supertrolls, it literally made me cry when i read the following entry in that blog :-
“Moving on – the Dorset guys – You, Leaky, backed up the Borg’s claims of 9 charges, which all turned out to be “false” – another occasion of you making false allegations, and yet your bio claims to be so against false allegations, projecting much. Two men, on bail for 50 wks due to false allegations, which I remind you again, you backed up. The two men had all false allegations, which again I remind you, you backed up, dropped , ie NFA, 9 charges of false allegations, backed up by you, dropped. Then 10 days later, one of the Dorset guys dies. But you still trolled his surviving partner.”
Simon Ronald Just is clearly a monster of epic proportions, no doubt whatsoever. His and the Hewson cows abuse of you is outrageous, but i did warn you before Twitter suspended my two accounts, but you would not take any advice from me, hence the 24/7 abuse you are experiencing now from these two sociopathic/psychopathic monsters connected to all the other members of the supertroll gang.
They are collectively responsible for the death of my Angel Robert, but i call them MURDERERS supported by the police! I have a P.I.N on one of them, a lifetime DV/DA non molestation order on another, but these are merely pieces of paper Sarah, not worth the paper they are printed on. You have a P.I.N on the Gin soaked cow and you see how ineffective it is.
I have been accepted as a member of a 996 strong private facebook group over the weekend, and we are now discussing setting up a charity/C.I.C and then applying for special status to the Home Secretary to get permission to bring a Super-Complaint against the police, who as you yourself have now experienced are in fact not upholders of the Law of this Land, but indeed have made themselves ARBITERS OF THE LAW. This was never the intention of Sir Robert Peel, and things need to change. I suggest you might consider joining the facebook group of people who like myself and you are victims of entirely false allegations like those made by Simon Ronald Just of kendal in Cumbria as detailed above in the extract from the cats blogger blog about him. With my knowledge and you as a Barrister, we could take a Super Complaint far, not just for the benefit of ourselves but for all victims of false allegations currently suffering, but more importantly and in the interests of altruism, for future generations and victims.
In 2015 the then policing and justice Minister, The Rt. Hon. Mike Penning MP personally wrote to me advising me that the Government were planning new legislation making it possible for victims of the police to bring what is known as a Super-Complaint to Government, explaining that individually Government could not and would not look at complaints, but that as a well organized group of victims making a Super-Complaint, such a group could then Lobby government and be listened to collectively.
That legislation is at hand, I respectfully suggest you have a read of it and get back to me if interested, Sarah. I do have empathy for the situation you now find yourself in from the abuse of Just/Hewson on Twitter. However, you have only experience this for 12 months whereas I and Robert have experienced it 24/7265 point 3. But, what have you or indeed any of the other victims lost, your pride perhaps, your security, well I have lost and Angel and that Angel lost his life at the hands of these evil sociopathic/psychotic narcissistic SuperTrolls, so that puts it all into a greater context and perspective for you.
Best wishes, Christopher.
Please excuse the typos 24/7/365 point 2
Apologies, it is lack of rest and sleep, trying again
24/7/365 x 2.2
here it is :-
Read this about Simon Ronald Just, Janette Scharenborg and Adrian McCormack, all the truth, never read this before and i have now sent it to the police investigating them all
Here are some McKenzies friends you should never trust
Sarah, i have just seen you advocating civil group action about Twitter harassment. In that case, put your money where your mouth is and add you tuppence worth here, as I have
Something very odd going on on that buzzfeed article, my comments have been messed with, altered and pieces remove to make them insensible. Cannot get in to edit them either so have made a complaint direct to buzzfeed. Someone does not want the truth being exposed it seems!
Buzzfeed also published this criticism of Twitter in another article I just found, you can leave approrpirate comments there Sarah.\
Last year I can recall a female MP in the Birmingham area going Public about abuse etc. on Twitter .She had suffered greatly from it and she summed the problem up succinctly describing it as a ‘flawed business plan’.
Can we also say that Facebook is as well?
I don’t go on either anymore but then again, I didn’t really take part in either anyway apart from following the odd link at the top of each page on this resort.
With his short, pithy comments on this thread Christopher Hobby has shown us that the format can easily be adopted by any website ( as I have suggested before). Lots of professionals appear to find the Twitter format helpful to discussion so, Sarah, would it be constructive if you set up a unique thread on the CPR where the number of characters is limited? The difference will be that you can set the rules and it will be moderated. Crazy, insulting or otherwise abusive comments and obscene language can be deleted. There is a place for completely free speech but the ‘social’ media is not that place.
The new thread will either take off and form a useful discussion or die after a few weeks . It can be used to post links etc. too. Why not think about it?
A question. When it says 40 characters does that mean 40 words or 40 letters?
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My two children was on a home placement agreement, the local authority gave me 14 days notice and i went to court to discharge the order.
My son is 16 in court he was refered to as 15
He is severly autistic and epileptic. They changed the placement.
But the judge had stated they couldn’t remove with out taking me to court
Stopping over-medication: Ricky and Andy’s story
Hi my girlfriend and I have just found out she is pregnant and she has got 2 children at the moment in foster care and we are in the process of getting them back they are there because of her violent ex partner but because she is pergnant will this effect our chances of getting her kids back at all we are worried
It is certainly something that is relevant – you will need to think hard about the impact this could have on your parenting, the impact on the older two if they come and live with you from foster care. Its going to be quite a big adjustment to have a new baby brother or sister. But its not an impossible situation to deal with if you both understand the challenges. As long as there are no concerns about you as a partner and you can show you will be supportive and helpful, it could be workable. But I don’t know anything about how the older children are; if they are very upset and traumatised by what has happened in their lives, it may not be a good idea to try and move them to a home wth a new baby. They may need a lot more attention than you will be able to give them. It will depend on so many different things, but just be open and talk freely. If you need some support, ask for it, don’t pretend everything is fine.
Sarah, My daughters two children have just had a care and placement ordere made. 27th June. For various reasons I am not in a position to take the children. They were initially placed in foster care 9th October 2017 and she had various options to get herself in to rehab etc but it hasn’t happened hence the final order. The hearing previous to the last hearing stated that the “mother” was out of the picture and would no longer be considered , it only got adjourned for a further three weeks as it looked like other family members could step in but as they could only provide temporary arrangements the judges would not accept that.
My daughter wants to contest the order on the basis of change of circumstances – that being that I say I will take the children temporarily until she goes to rehab – gets clean and then able to have the children back. However my question is would that be considered a change of circumstances – and are the judges likely to reconsider their view that Mum is out of the picture as she is still using.
My take has always been that if I agreed to have the children she will never get clean as she knows they are will family but she hasn’t managed to get clean even with them in foster care. I always would have considered having them temporarily but I cannot commit to bringing up her two children permanently and I fear that it what would happen if I make a temporary commitment. I also have two young children myself and work.
This has caused so much distress to the whole family, I want to help my daughter and I don’t want to lose my grandchildren (who I have been seeing regularly since October) but I don’t want to commit to a process which leaves me with 4 children to bring up and a daughter that is still using .
I know you cant give personal advice but the main query is would my saying I’d have them be a Change of /circs and would the judges reconsider her as a potential carer in the future. any feedback appreciated
I am afraid that I am pessimistic on what I have just read – but you clearly understand my usual caveat that I can’t sensibly advise about anything on limited information.
But as a general point, rehab is just the starting point in a necessary journey. Its a crucial one of course for many addicts but it is only a first step. If she successfully detoxes in rehab she then has to show she can stay drug free out in the community and that is the real challenge for many.
However, I have seen a marked ‘Shift’ in judicial attitudes to change in circumstances recently so if she does successfully complete rehab then I would think this a powerful argument for the necessary change of circumstances argument to be made at any future adoption hearing application. But without clear evidence that she can manage in the community, it probably wouldn’t be enough.
sorry not to be more helpful but you appreciate the limits I operate under. My general advice fwiw is that she should definitely go to rehab and try and stay drug free thereafter. Then she would be in a much better position for any future orders. I assume you would also be able to offer help and support.
Nichola, you say àny feedback will be appreciated so whilst we await Sarah’s reply,I hope you will welcome some from another parent with a laypersons experience of the system.
You obviously love your grandchildren very much and you have explained that whilst willing to help,for a very good reason,you are unable to care for them long-term until they reach 18.
I hope the Court has insisted that the Local Authority follows all the Working Together frameworks and guidelines.Have they called a family conference?
If not, you should call one and if they have,you should call another which includes ALL extended family members.
In my opinion,extended family( brothers,sisters,cousins,aunts,uncles) have a clear duty to care for the children of incapacited relatives and were any of them considered ‘out of the picture’ and written off so cruelly they too, are entitled to rely on the same from family.As the elder,you should make their duty clear to them.
The Court would have to find the circumstances changed were one of the extended family members to offer to foster the children.The children face a second class life of mental torture and degradation when placed outside natural family especially in the Public care system where their prospects will be extremely bleak.In my experience,families who foster are also eligible for the same payments which ordinary foster-carers receive.
However,I have to warn you that even if you go back to court with changed circumstances,it can still decide the children should stay where they are if they have already been there a while.It may prefer not to reunite them with family and claim it is in their ‘best interests’ not to be disturbed.
The Local Authority usually testify wrongly children are thriving in care so make sure you get professional medical opinion as to their true condition if they do.
I hope,of course,you are dealing with an authority which is open and willing to co-operate with arranging a family placement.
Nichols,May I add that two grandparents I know personally very well took on the responsibility of two children after their daughter was written off.The Local Authority were very good about it ,they offered support etc.and the grandmother was able to pack up work.The fostering allowance she received for the children actually exceeded her previous income by 50%.
Have the LA discussed financial support with you? Hope this helps in a small way.
Anyway, I am sure Sarah will give you professional legal tips this weekend.She always helps whenever she can.
Sarah, Does anyone know if there is a car park at Conway Hall and does one have to pay to drive into central London?
I’ve no idea,not been there since 1991,twenty-seven years ago!
There is some info here https://conwayhall.org.uk/about/visiting-us/
There is metered car parking available in Red Lion Square and adjacent streets, unrestricted after 18.30, Saturdays after 13.30 and Sundays all day. Please note some parking areas are for “Residents Only” and there are other local restrictions. There is also one disabled parking bay directly in front of our main entrance, but blue badge holders can park for free in and around the Red Lion Square area following Camden’s Blue Badge Parking Scheme (Guide in PDF). Parking in Red Lion Square follows Camden Council’s Green Zone regulations (Map in PDF). More information on Camden’s website: https://www.camden.gov.uk/parking
Looking for advice please
I have my great nephew under a sgo order in court it was said that mum and dad who are seperated have contact supervised by myself but mum states now that she is not happy to have supervised contact .Any advice apreciated
You have the SGO, its your decision UNLESS who sees your great nephew and in what circumstances, unless there is a court order which states differently, in which case you must obey the court order. An SGO gives the Special Guardian ‘super PR’ – even though the parents retain their PR, your decisions override theirs.
If the child’s mother isn’t happy with supervised contact, and you aren’t happy to let it be unsupervised OR there is a court order that says it can’t be, then she has to make an application to court to change the existing order or ask court to make a new one.
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Hi i have had my grandson living with me for the last year due to his mother having personality disorder which is now undercontrol …at the time of removal someone rang the police and he was removed from his mum and taken to her friend as ss said they could not get hild of any family members this was lies as no phone calls. The following day i was given permission to collect him from school and he would be in my care …they classified this as a family agreement no court order in place ..at the time didn’t realise they classified his as a family agreement to suit them regarding not responsible for having to support him financially…this has been so tough as my husband and myself work full time and have had to spend a great deal on child care …my grandson has been seeing his mother regularly although they have stated no overnight contact at the moment… she is so much better and I feel she is very capable of taking him on again she has just moved to a shared house in the next road to me …what will they do if she took him back as they have said she can do this at any time although they advise not at the moment as we have to follow the plan …this is so hard all round
That does sound very hard. If he goes back to his mum and the LA don’t agree that is the right place for him they will have to issue care proceedings. You would be in a good position to be considered as foster carers or Special Guardians for him. A Special Guardian Order would bring with it assessment and hopefully financial support. So I think you need to make it very clear to them that the family placement is under immense financial pressure and you either need financial help or your grandson returns to his mother’s care.
that does run the risk that the LA issue proceedings in court but that might in the long term be better if you are really struggling with the current situation.
Sarah, I think you’ve said that you have not personally seen evidence of all professionals conspiring together and reporting lies? I was just wondering………if someone WAS to show you documented evidence (after the case) of a conspiracy, including magistrates / judges ignoring evidence, and children had been removed unjustly, would this change your advice on here? And in what way?
Of course I would take evidence very carefully. I am not wedded to one position or another. I care only for facts. All I can say is that in 4 years of active campaigning I have been told over and over again that I would be sent evidence of ‘conspiracy’ and evil doing and I never, ever am. I have people telling me ‘my chid was taken because I was so intelligent’. I read the judgment in their case and their child was taken because they tried to take child to meet a paedophile in a hotel. I am told ‘I was never aggressive or drunk it’s all lies’ and I read a judgment which gives the details of a long history of criminal behaviour etc, etc, etc. I have been sent a tape recording of a CAFCASS officer with the promise that ‘this will blow the system sky high!’ and it showed nothing of the sort. Just a woman trying to do her job.
So yes please. If you have evidence. Show me. I like evidence. the facts are always friendly.
Thankyou, but my questions were (if you don’t mind answering of course) if you did see documented evidence of professionals lying in reports and judges ignoring, would it change the way you advise on here and in what way?
It would depend entirely on the degree and nature of the corruption identified. It is lots of judges and social workers lots of the time? Or a few on a few occasion? Just what exactly are you alleging?
Just a few examples with documented evidence:
1) Court had a report which stated parents do not feel that the child has a disability. SW reported (after that) parents had labelled the child with disability throughout his life.
2) SW reported that the father had long term mental ill health. GP reported there is no record of mental ill health. 3) Foster carers reported that the child was injuring their children. SW reported there were no behavioural problems at the foster carers. Many more like this (some worse, putting child at risk) None contested by our solicitors or child solicitor or Guardian. Full Care Order granted, judge stating he agreed with the authorities, including within human rights.
I don’t understand your example at 1. One report said X. SW said Y. If those two things are different then it is up to the lawyers to explore that in cross examination and the Judge makes a decision about the evidence he/she prefers. Difference in opinion is not necessarily evidence of corruption. You would have to demonstrate bad faith.
Example at 2 – again, if SW opinion clashes with GP, Judge has to decide which evidence he prefers. A GP is not a specialist on MH conditions; but equally nor is a SW. If there was a dispute about this then an expert report was needed. If the lawyers failed to pick up on that, that is poor practice, but again, not necessarily evidence of corruption.
Example 3 – again, dispute about what is factually correct between foster carer and social worker. Court has to hear evidence, lawyers challenge by way of cross examination and Judge decides what evidence he/she prefers.
If your instructions to your lawyers were to challenge this evidence and they did not, then that is a serious professional failing and you may well have some legal action you could take against them.
But without much, much more evidence I can’t possibly say if any of this is ‘corrupt’. It sounds like a fairly typical set of care proceedings. People disagree about the emphasis to put on various parts of the evidence or disagree even more fundamentally than that.
But your lawyer should take your instructions and challenge what you ask him/her to challenge. It is very wrong to fail to do that. If I think a client is making a big mistake in attempting to challenge something that is pretty black and white I will have that discussion with them and try to make sure they understand where I am coming from. I always say ‘ultimately I do what you tell me to do, unless you want me to do something crazy like punch the judge. but I also have a job to advise you and my advice is that it will really hurt your case if you do X or Y’.
If you cannot have that kind of honest discussion with your lawyer then you need to find one that you can talk to. But not only must the lawyer be able to talk clearly; you must be able to listen.
To a significant number of parents that have previously contributed to this forum, they will relate to what you are stating. Unfortunately . It goes on and on and parents have very ,very little power to change anything.
Did you know any one who adopt child from private fostering agencies and registered with system too?
One lesson we should all learn from Yorkshire lasses questions and from Sarah’s response is the immense difference in attitude between an ordinary northern lass ( an average citizen) and a Family Court lawyer. Lawyers are not unintelligent; they have common-sense just as the average citizen does but their attitudes reflect who they are! They are lawyers out to achieve an aim which is to win a case and they do have a conflict of interests; they regard themselves as guardians of the public purse for example and they have a duty to the court in that they can’t spend the necessary time to question hearsay evidence , they have a duty to Court schedules. They also see themselves as child-savers and seem to predicate even more than SW’s on a respondent’s antecedents .
The more I read the things they write, the more I realise that such serious public-law cases in which families can have their lives destroyed SHOULD NEVER,EVER be decided by lawyers but by a jury of ordinary citizens. The things they write are often empty and meaningless arguments ,if you look at them carefully but they regard them as reasonable .No ordinary juryman would.
Just look at the three examples above.
1) If the court had an official report that parents did not think a child had a disability and the SW contradicted it without questioning the parents as appropriate and in accordance with his or her duty then that would be a lack of bad faith. Any ordinary person would understand that but not our lawyers ,apparently.
2)A G.P. can be expected to know much more than a non-medical social worker about his or her patient as should the patient’s spouse and if the GP reports no mental health issues and the spouse concurs then no way can a SW contradict them both in good faith. Any lawyer who argues a non-medical SW’s evidence is in good faith when it contradicts a GP is being a little stupid ,we might think, but they aren’t stupid they are stretching the law, which they see as their job. No way should an outside expert have to be brought in.
3) It is, I guess, fairly unusual when SW’s dispute a foster-carers evidence and when they do it will be because it goes against the aims of the L.A. Strange how Yorkshire lass claims that SW evidence wasn’t challenged by any of the sets of solicitors , not only her own.
If any parent wants to demonstrate to the court that evidence is not in good faith and is probably deliberate untruth, then they should instruct their lawyer to argue that all the alleged ‘mistakes’ and ‘differences of opinion’ all happen to be in favour of the LA litigation. There will be never be any mistakes made in the parent’s favour or indeed anything at all. A lack of objectivity on the part of an LA adds up to corruption in the eyes of normal citizens. It’s only lawyers who seek to minimise LA bias.
Take a look at this link to a recent judgment. http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWFC/OJ/2018/B77.html
The lawyers argued that the Mum had learning and cognitive difficulties which put her ability to care for her baby in doubt whilst simultaneously arguing it did not affect her ability to act and instruct a solicitor. Strange, but typical of lawyers. If the LA failed to obtain a special needs independent mediating advocate for this family in accordance with the Working Together Frameworks, then how could she possibly understand fully her responsibilities etc. I don’t suppose the LA were open and honest with her . Why should they be? The lawyers don’t hold them to the rules.
So ,as we reach the end of another year , I want to add to the principle that ‘justice’ must be seen to be done. To ensure proportionality and strict fairness ,family liquidation plans should never be decided by lawyers but only by a jury. That is a great tradition of British Justice too and splitting a family permanently is as bad as a death sentence.
Merry Christmas and a happy new year to Sarah and all readers.
I have a niece who’s 24 with learning disability and she’s had a baby they are both in foster care at the moment.my niece and her mum have put me forward to take the baby if social workers find my niece not able to look after the baby .ive had my DBS check back and it’s all clear I’ve had my viability check done which was positive.been told they need to do more checks which is fine .but does this mean I will get the SGO over my nieces baby .
I am afraid it is impossible for me or anyone else on line to say! The decision will be made by a Judge after he/she has seen all the papers. I don’t know anything about your case other than what you say here.
BUT from what you say it is looking pretty positive so far – your initial assessment is positive which means they will carry on to look in more detail about your circumstances. Nothing has come back on the DBS check which is positive, your niece has chosen to put you forward. So I will keep my fingers crossed; if you can do it then I think most people would agree it would be much better for everyone if the baby can stay in the family and still have some kind of contact with his/her mum.
The corruption in the Administration for Children’s Services is increasing every year. Hundreds of thousands of children are taken from families. Many of them are taken on trumped-up charges. It is an urgent need to stop it. Take part in the drafting of the petition.
Does a family court actually have the power to seize someone’s phone? My daughter has been asked for hers and is reluctant to give it up because it’s far from clear what the court is looking for. She’s been given no date for its return and is further concerned because in addition to lots of sensitive personal information it holds of all her photos, banking apps, utility apps. friends’ details and contacts – pretty much everything to manage her life.
I’ve advised her not to give it up. Her solicitor is wishy-washy on the subject, but I suspect the court has no such powers and they’re taking advantage of a vulnerable young woman who’s not currently able to defend herself very well. Am I right?
A good question. I don’t think they have an enforceable right to seize property – the police do however. But failure to release a phone will lead probably to ‘adverse inferences’ being drawn which could be very damaging. My advice would be to agree BUT they have to be very clear what they are looking for and when they will give it back. They can’t just generally trawl through her private information; that’s a breach of Article 8. It has to be proportionate. And if the phone is being used to manage her life, as so many of us do, I don’t think it would be reasonable to remove if for more than a couple of days.
John, From what I have read , I understand that one of the main reasons the Court might demand your daughter’s phone is to try and establish whether or not she is telling the truth . Very often,the SW’s act disproportionately and forbid free speech between partners about whom there are concerns such as alleged domestic violence. The couple may well be commanded not to communicate ‘in the best interests of their children’ . In other words , without a court order, they withdraw human rights and liberties. They may want to prove a woman has been in ‘phone contact. It will probably not concern a matter of national security or serious criminal activity.
It is not fair but nevertheless,you should take heed of Sarah’s legal advice. She is right, they will never have adverse inferences taken against them no matter how many times and how seriously they breach Article 8 or any other human rights. The Court sweeps institutional abuses under the carpet yet ,as she rightly points out, adverse inferences WILL be taken about your daughter and the inference will be that she is trying to mislead the Court.
Sadly, if either you or your daughter object to rights abuses , refuse to comply or should you exercise your legal rights to make a complaint under official procedures, the Family Court is likely to take adverse inferences about that too which will be very damaging.
Advocates should advise their clients not to agree to restrictions on free speech and free communications, not to sign any agreements without legal advice and to make use of public ‘phone boxes.
Yet respondents must always obey Court orders .Family Courts can only ASK for mobile phones. Best if your daughter obliges.
If your daughter does have an independent advocate/mediator ,the best advice might be that she only communicates with SW’s through an intermediary. If she does not have one, you could be her advocate and mediate for her and advise as to the signing of agreements and letters of expectation. Of course, the mediator might also be the go-between with warring parties thus avoiding arguments and falling out.
The Working Together frameworks do call for independent advocacy and mediation.
Many thanks for the advice and comments, Sarah and Angelo. Happily, my daugher has a new solicitor, who is very much on the ball. The new solicitor has also made the point about ‘adverse inferences’ and has asked for a copy of the letter of instruction to the forensic analyst. She will also ask for assurances that this is not just a ‘fishing exercise’ and that a definite date is given for the phone’s return.
The solicitor is kindly lending my daughter a smartphone; laughably, the LA has just delivered the cheapest, nastiest ‘burner’ phone you can imagine!
Glad to hear that you have faith in your daughter’s new solicitor and thanks for raising a useful question.
Quick question, I am currently trying to gain access through the courts, my ex-wife refuses to agree to anything or let me see the kids, I got court granted access which my ex broke and I bring her back to court for breach of access order and now judge wants a section 32 report done based on her lies, no drugs or problems in the family just two loving parents and the kids love us both. So that’s the back story but I am concerned as to how a section 32 works. I never in my wildest dreams thought I would end up here. Also my ex-wife has a new/affair partner in the family home (without sounding bitter) as I am not I am worried about how it is effecting the kids do things like that be taking into consideration, anyway any help would be grateful as I am totally in the dark as to what will happen next thanks in advance
Sorry I don’t know what a section 32 report is. Are you in the USA? This is a site dealing with the law in England and Wales.
Apologies Sarah, I am in the Republic of Ireland a new law brought out where a social worker meets both parents on their own and then the kids on their own and writes a report for the court’s it’s named to voice of the child report
Thanks for the clarification – I wasn’t aware of that.
Tom,You may find this discussion relevant :-
Yeah this whole blaming the mothers thing fir child abuse, does not add up. It is blaming domestic abuse victims in which often children are in the freaking crosshairs. Yes of course men want to blame women again for not being victims of any kind of abuse, but ladies in a few years with the anti abortion laws passing we won’t have any rights at all. Men who are like my ex who are career hitters of women and sexual abusers, will do anything to make themselves look like victims including get a restraining order for talking over the car with him. They will make all malarky up about how you treated them even though they have gone to jail for hospitalizing you. And hits their neice and nephew. Reported. They are monsters and they want nothing more to blame women and make them look like monsters. I not saying that child abuse among women doesn’t happen because does, but way less frequent. These men that do rape, hit and murder women and children are misogynistic. They want nothing more than to blame the victim and take away our rights if we are being wonderful parents. If the mother does abuse, it shows in hospitals too. They don’t have that. I think a lot of mothers take the fall for abusive Dads. My mom did as I was sent home from school and CPS was called. My mom ended up taking horrible classes about babies being tortured when it was my father who slammed my face against a hard wooden bunk bed at the age of 5. How often is women taken the fall not reported, its not because they will believe a woman did it right away and that sucks. A five year old I clearly remember them never questioning me although they very well could have. No, children lie or don’t get their facts straight! I will tell you from a child of trauma I remember and it was brutal. The bruise he left all the way to the bone. So with this I say, I am sorry for those who have been abused by women. But this whole women do it more is not how we solve our child abuse problem. It’s an effort of laws and socioeconomic status and definitely a smear campaign. Statistics lie a lot, I knew from taking a class. There are too many variables.
Sorry to trouble you all but a little advice please.
Our adopted daughter whom we knew had serious issues regarding her inability to tell anything remotely truthful has apparently been approaching the school SENCO and stating untruths, which have been believed by the SENCO and now Social Services are involved (I realise we will probably require legal assistance in the near future). However my issue is that the SENCO has not simply stated our daughters allegations in her report BUT has then included hearsay that has been gathered from unknown sources.
Is hearsay allowed in a SENCO report that Social Services have now included in their report?
Much appreciated and thank you
Hearsay is generally admissible in proceedings involving children BUT it must be treated with caution and the primary evidence is required if its available. So I would certainly want to know what the source of the hearsay evidence is and why it is not possible to see the primary evidence. The court should put a lot less weight on any hearsay evidence as of course you can’t challenge it directly.
Many thanks Sarah
Dewi, Reports should be scrupulously fair and investigations for them conducted according to guidelines which demand professional impartiality ESPECIALLY when hearsay is included.As Sarah says,hearsay can be entered into proceedings.
Less weight is put on hearsay evidence but if there is enough of it ,it will weigh against you.
The honesty of the person making the reports may be an issue because Family Courts grant him or her credit as a professional.
A good test of honesty?
Is the hearsay all one-way.By that,I mean ,is it all adverse to you or is some of it in your favour? If any mistakes are found ,are they all one-way?
This test has been used in Court to demonstrate dishonesty before.
Family Courts are inferior ones and the protocol demands complete impartiality.
That’s the only advice I can give you as a fellow parent.
CPR is CPR (respiratory) last time I checked.
I cannot find anything on this site that mentions let alone elaborates on Challenging Jurisdiction of the Family Court (Division of the High Court).
Not sure what you mean by this. In what circumstances do you wish to challenge jurisdiction? I have discussed at length Brussels II bis and challenging jusrisdiction on basis of habitual residence etc.
I’m a social worker and recommend this website to clients. Thank you for putting it together Sarah. A great resource!
Thank you very much!
Hi this is a really good post and I feel I wish it was true but the situation im in, is just wrong an I no clue where to turn sorry its long but if I miss anything you need to help or advice then please just ask
I have 4 children 11,8,7,4 both me an hubby have mh and have benn known to socail over the 11 years for support or malious calls. May last year (i have plan notes) it says that I report to be ok but find hard and frustrating at times due to the lockdowns and covid also my house needed repairing so was getting me down as wanted to decorate it. In August socail worker discharged me to tac as with the support in place we were keeping on top of everything. I begged her not to discharge as I felt it wrong I still needed the support with covid as a lot could do visits etc due to restrictions. Due to said restrictions I never met tac worker but spoke on phone once a month when said it weren’t great but we doing best we can in these times. My 4 children fight we loud home but happy and healthy. End jan 2 eldest boys had disagreement over telly resulting in 7 yo throwing pop bottle at 10 yo leaving a black eye my son said he couldnt see out his eye so I rang 111 took him a&e on there advice ,(he said he unsure if blacked out and I was down stairs with 3yo about to start dinner) for dr to report nai, socail went to my home and removed children from husband due to home needing repairing and the mess even though I stuck to everything on plan from last sw. Any way my children are subject to an ico and they are using my mental health etc to keep children in long term Foster care the thing is I no what support is needed and have proven it works before covid hit. Family assessment all neg saying mental health all the way through, even though only been issue once and that due to someone being over dramatic in front of my daughter 8 few years back and there is a plan in place to avoid again she also attends young carers to talk to others her age in simular situation (which i sorted) since children have gone i have done 18 course on how to manage stress, my well being, parenting, first aid, C.S.E., A.C.E.S., serious case review level 1 and 2 got 3 and 4 left to do, and more. I’ve not met socail worker and they have made mind up on the fact we both have mental health all my children want to come home but instead they have 2 oldest son 11 and daughter 8 together (but on about spliting) and my other 2 sons 7 and 4 on their own. Im so worried my 4 yo is lashimg out and was having acciendents only just started to be put in pants for contact centre. Apart from that I dont no as I was told I do appointments and need to bout children as have joint pr with la. But sw has said that I cant due to covid but I took my son to his hospital appointment with the 1st sw before she left. My problem is even though I begged and said I struggling at times I was ignored and now I’m here being accused of future neglect.
What do your lawyers say? If this has gone to court, then you should have got legal aid and I hope that your lawyers can explain what is going on and properly advise you. The LA do have a duty to think about how they can support you and the court should consider that. But Its difficult for me to advise anything on line.
You were namedropped by ShoeOnHead
June probably shouldn’t go around saying you’re her family lawyer in a video where she’s making fun of people pretending to have false credentials.
Who is June? And who is claiming I am their ‘family lawyer?’
I saw! Glad that my experiences are helping others.
Laurence Fox is cringe. I am so glad Billie left him. He and Daubney are rank; they look like they have at least ten tugs a day. Being able to spend Hoskins millions by sitting around sending out abusive tweets and trying to create division. Vile. Good luck to you joining their crowd.
Thanks for your good wishes Dave. Happily I do not ever rely on ‘luck’. I am interested in the rule of law, its protection and its defence. You don’t have to be. I respect your right to an opinion; either offer me the same respect or go away.
You claim to be concerned about children but are working with the horrible Bad Law Team who spread lies about vaccines. Why would you undermine everything you’ve done in your career?
I decide who I work with and why. If you dislike my choices, that is your business. It is of no interest nor relevance to me
Antivaxx lies are of staggering importance. Lending your support to infamous anti-vaccine campaigners is everyone’s business. Hate and lies and lunacy need to be exposed. Don’t people what’s there business. Anti-vaxxers kill children. Don’t support them.
Then feel very free not to support me, and do not come to this site again.
Defending swastika Tweets now. All those years working to defend women and children washed away. Why? What made you think that you should work with hate groups? Bullies, banter, misogyny, hatred and lies. That’s what you want to be remembered for? Try to remember what you once stood for!
I decide who I work with and why. If you dislike my choices, that is your business. It is of no interest nor relevance to me.
Defending the swastikas of your hero Laurence Fox.
Swooning over Gareth Icke, dingbat son of dingbat father.
Banter Tweets with Putin apologist Alex McCarron.
What are you doing? Your career is being trashed. These are hateful hate figures. Vile misogynist pigs. Disgusting chauvinistic bullies. They are open and proud about their association with Tommy Robinson. Is this now who you really are? A far right mouthpiece for appalling hate groups?
Your name and career dashed on the rocks for what gain?
Your concern for my career is noted, but it is misplaced. If you dislike my associations, feel very free not to visit my site.
Liar. You are an outright liar.
The Halifax aren’t compelling anyone to do anything. You have seen their response but you keep on tweeting the same aggressive nonsense.
Hang your head in shame. Your nothing but a poundland Katie Hopkins.
I didn’t think it was real but you really are working for the disgusting misogynist pigs in the Bad Law Project? What on earth? This makes no sense to me. Have you fallen for all the silly ‘red pill’ craziness? You were such a good voice for children and women. These horrible men are all we’ve fought against! Please explain why you are working for a hate group.
I do not agree with your characterisation of the Bad Law Project. They are not a ‘hate’ group and I will work with them if I wish. I owe you no explanation.
They are a hate group – [Redacted as abusive]
What is abusive about stating that Harry Miller is a well known Tommy Robinson fan? This is well-known, verifiable and Googlable.
My site, my rules. Don’t like it? Feel very free to go elsewhere.
Laurence Fox really is the most appalling man in Britain. [Redacted as abusive]
The far right cancelling people again, quelle surprise. Why would you delete that comment? It’s not abusive to show the climate change denialist lies or appalling antivaxx conspiracy theories of Laurence Fox and his bully-boy cronies.
I’ve just been reading about Harry Miller’s numerous banned Twitter accounts. Even Elon Musk wouldn’t have kept the Tommy Robinson love-in ones up I’m sure. You’re associating with the darkest of the dark web incel goons.
You know you have reached a very low point in your life when you start associating with Laurence Fox, Martin Daubney and Harry Miller, who are useful idiots for millionaires like Jeremy Hoskings. Their posh Tommy Robinson act allows them a platform to say disgusting and cruel things about people, particularly minority groups. This reveals who you are.
[REDACTED as I can see your IP address, which so far you have used for at least four other insulting sock puppet accounts]
[Redacted for sock puppetry and general tediousness]
You’re a nasty piece of work. [REDACTED AS ABUSIVE]
Doesn’t Tweeting swastikas undermine everything? I’m still in shock that you’d do that. In 50 years the only people I’ve seen do this are BNP thugs in the 70s, Laurence Fox and you Sarah. Whatever silly point you are making stop. It’s deeply offensive. Your defence will be the silly ‘free speech’ one I know. Free speech doesn’t mean ‘post swastikas’.
O yes it does. If you don’t like it, you know what you can do.
” I have challenged Ian Josephs many times about what information he got about the parents he helped to leave the country and whether or not he followed up their cases once they had left. He carries out no risk assessment and no follow up.”
If you search my name IAN JOSEPHS on google this site comes up with the challenge above !
Well it is true that I carry out no risk assessments on pregnant women.Risk assessments should be BANNED as pathetic attempts to read the future crystal ball style ! I only financed pregnant women to leave the country as I believe no babies should be taken at birth from women who have never committed a crime against children.Social workers were invented in 1948 and so were risk assessments and we did much better before then leaving child cruelty to the police . Punishment without crime is a crime itself and please do not tell a mum whose baby has been taken away at birth that she is NOT being punished !!